Copper Toxicity

[Valentijn]

A woman who posted on here explained to me that we have high biounavailable copper because we don't have the carrier proteins to ferry them around so they accumulate in the liver.

If I take large amounts of molybdenum or zinc I get very sick. I suspect copper toxicity.

The zinc will just make the copper binding worse, and leave less available for use. Zinc and copper are bound by the same substance, and taking too much zinc will cause more binding, but it prefers copper over zinc.

 

[aquariusgirl]

Not at my brightest today(!).....but wouldn't zinc force the copper out of the liver?

 

[SB_1108]

The zinc will just make the copper binding worse, and leave less available for use. Zinc and copper are bound by the same substance, and taking too much zinc will cause more binding, but it prefers copper over zinc.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying... could you please explain? Are you saying that because copper and zinc are both bound to metallothionein, taking too much zinc will cause increase metallothionein binding? Wouldn't that still be good thing, since it prefers copper?

 

[Valentijn]

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying... could you please explain? Are you saying that because copper and zinc are both bound to metallothionein, taking too much zinc will cause increase metallothionein binding? Wouldn't that still be good thing, since it prefers copper?

I'm saying that the overabundance of copper is completely hypothetical, and if taking zinc makes symptoms worse, it seems unlikely that copper toxicity would be to blame. The opposite problem seems more likely, since excess zinc would essentially make more copper go away.

 

[SB_1108]

I'm saying that the overabundance of copper is completely hypothetical, and if taking zinc makes symptoms worse, it seems unlikely that copper toxicity would be to blame. The opposite problem seems more likely, since excess zinc would essentially make more copper go away.

I guess for me an overabundance of copper is/was not hypothetical... I've known that was my problem for almost two years. I can explain that if necessary but I could make a post out of that in itself. Since starting my copper detox I've made SIGNIFICANT improvements in my health.

I don't think you can apply the logic that if something makes symptoms worse, then its not helpful. For example, probiotics... Just because they cause die-off symptoms in some individuals doesn't mean they aren't beneficial/necessary. In all likelihood its the opposite, they need the good bacteria to help keep down the bad bacteria. I think the same can be said about the copper/zinc ratio in someone with copper toxicity.

 

[arx]

What were your initial symptoms like,SB_1108?

I started off with 50 mg zinc,50 mg p5p and 1000 mg Vitamin C three days back. I felt better the first day, then the next two days got progressively worse. I felt more stimulated, increased anxiety,racing thoughts,slight headaches,nausea and tight muscles. I felt better after taking a benzo.

Is this reaction normal? Does this mean copper dumping or that I'm taking too much zinc? From what I've read,my symptoms fit in both. I'm confused.

 

[Valentijn]

I guess for me an overabundance of copper is/was not hypothetical... I've known that was my problem for almost two years. I can explain that if necessary but I could make a post out of that in itself. Since starting my copper detox I've made SIGNIFICANT improvements in my health.

I don't think you can apply the logic that if something makes symptoms worse, then its not helpful. For example, probiotics... Just because they cause die-off symptoms in some individuals doesn't mean they aren't beneficial/necessary. In all likelihood its the opposite, they need the good bacteria to help keep down the bad bacteria. I think the same can be said about the copper/zinc ratio in someone with copper toxicity.

Your assumptions of elevated copper seem to be based on low (then high) hair results, and low bound copper and normal serum copper. I think you are assuming quite a lot without much foundation, and it might be easier and safer just to get your RBC copper levels tested.

Some ME patients actually have low copper, as some of your own results indicate, and driving it lower may be very risky.

 

[SB_1108]

First three days or so I didn't notice a difference. It took about 5-7 before I noticed anything. And when I did... It was very obvious. Within about 5 days of starting zinc/vitamin c/molybdenum I began having allergic reactions (my lips would swell every time I ate), I developed a rash on my chin and my most dramatic symptom was dizziness/fatigue to the point I could not stand. My anxiety was just out of control, terrible panic attacks, racing thoughts, etc. It was difficult for me because after I started taking the supplements, I tried to stop the detox by stopping the supplements but it takes a while after you open the flood gates (copper gates?!?!) to stop the release of the copper. So it took me about a week to calm down. But after that, I knew that copper was my problem and I knew I had to focus more on the supplements/detox for a longer period of time.

 

[arx]

Thanks!

 

[arx]

Is 50 mg zinc a day a good enough dose to start off?

 

[SB_1108]

Your assumptions of elevated copper seem to be based on low (then high) hair results, and low bound copper and normal serum copper. I think you are assuming quite a lot without much foundation, and it might be easier and safer just to get your RBC copper levels tested.

Some ME patients actually have low copper, as some of your own results indicate, and driving it lower may be very risky.

My "assumption" of elevated copper is based on the fact that I've been detoxing copper for almost two years and I've made substantial improvements in my health. That is really all the proof I needed... the other information is just background.

I don't think a copper detox is for everyone... I completely agree that some people have very low copper levels and supplementation is necessary (and a copper detox would be harmful). I'm not advocating that everyone should go on a copper detox. CFS/ME is multifaceted and heavy metals are just a piece of the puzzle. But for some individuals copper may be a huge factor in their health and not sharing my particular situation (just because it isn't relevant for some individuals) would be a disservice.

 

[Vanessa_M]

I was reading on copper toxicity and would like to get it checked. When I read the symptoms I feel I might have it.Anyone has any experience with it?
Where I live there is no hair mineral analysis,but there is urine and serum copper tests. Which one should I go for?

Hi there, if you are talking about standard lab serum and urine copper tests, these are apparently USELESS for measuring copper levels, unless you have some kind of acute poisoning. Blood levels do not necessarily reflect what is actually in your tissues - because a lot of copper tends to store in certain areas like the liver. If the urine test is a Urine challenge, with a chelation agent - that one would be good.

A lot of the labs that do hair mineral testing can be done via the mail, does not need to be in your local area. I ordered my test through a local pharmacy here in British Columbia. You may just need to be seeing a practitioner that can order the testing kits though. Most naturopaths should be able to. You could try contacting ARL labs to see if there is a practitioner in your area, or if you could order directly from them http://www.arltma.com/

Also have a look at Direct Access Healthcare II - if you order the kit over the phone, I believe they have a Dr. on staff who will sign off on the order requisition, thus bypassing the need for a clinic in your area. https://www.pyroluriatesting.com/shop/hair-elements/ They also do the serum copper and plasma zinc test using the Walsh-Pfeiffer ranges, which are supposed to be more sensitive and accurate.

 

[Vanessa_M]

I should note that I take more than just those three supplements and I've found the methylation protocols to be immensely valuable to my progress with copper toxicity.

I've noticed that if I take a supplement with copper - it makes my symptoms drastically worse. I also try to limit high copper foods - nuts, avocados, beans, liver, etc.

Hi there, which methylation protocols are you following? Have been looking to connect with others that have tested positive for copper issues, plus who also have found methylation issues. I've been following Dr. William Walsh's work, he is connecting copper overload to overmethylation (in many cases, not all though)