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Amitriptyline and fluoxetine (prozac) treatment

Messages
64
http://sacfs.asn.au/download/consensus_overview_me_cfs.pdf That is the Canadian consensus document overview which has the diagnostic criteria in it. (scroll down, several pages or so till you get to the page heading (it stands out) "Clinical working case definition of ME/CFS". If you fit this you probably will fit the international ME defintion as they are quite similar..

Thank you.

The thing is, I feel and think I have something else, like an auto immune disorder. I feel like things such as sjogens meet my criteria for everything but when I ask the dr's about it being something else they seem to roll their eyes and dismiss me. I have a positive ANA but it is dismissed as it is a low positive.

I am a bit lost, but I really do not want to heavily medicate.
 

svetoslav80

Senior Member
Messages
700
Location
Bulgaria
Some people have reported that antidepressants helped them with depression and ADHD, but I've never heard someone say antidepressants have helped with fatigue. My personal experience is that they made my fatigue worse. For the protocol, I suffer multiple fatiguing disorders, but not CFS.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
There is one person at this website who ended up with a permanent damaged bladder due to Amitrip (frozen bladder where they no longer can go naturally), there are two people at this website who have permanent gut/stomach issues after Amitrip (we recently were talking about it on another thread). That drug taking just a short term, low dose trial of it in my case permanently damaged my bowel (prolapsed it to the point in which I almost needed surgery). One of the physiological effects of this drug is it slows down bowel peristalsis so affects muscle function in that area.. I assume that's what it did also to the one who got her bladder permanently damaged from it).

All of us who got these permanent issues from this drug were those who have ME (rather then general CFS). If I had to say what is the most dangerous drug for a ME person I'd say this drug as it can be permanent and doctors cant fix the issues it leaves. If you fit Canadian defined CFS or the international consensus ME defination.. Id say certainly avoid it, its shown too much risk.. there would be safer drugs around which you could try.

This is the only drug which has given me permanent damage.

I have a minor bladder problem which although worse in recent years started before I began amitriptyline - I also meet ME def. either way for me it was worth it because I wasn't sleeping at all before. But there are other thing you can try for sure, probably a good idea but I wouldn't rule it out entirely if you don't get relief elsewhere. For me it improved quality of life from desperately unbearable to bearable.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
cosmo
Are both medications for depression or is amitryptiline for sleep? Because if you're treating depression then you should only try one medication at a time and start on a low dose. Prozac should be started at 10 mg and amitriptyline (for sleep) should be no higher than 25 mg starting out. If your doc is only prescribing them for depression then I agree with ukxmrv. There's no reason someone should be started with two different antidepressants at once. A second one can be added later on for various reasons, but not at the outset. If the first one works, why take a second one? And it's also important to know which one is causing side effects.
 
Messages
64
Both are for cfs as a whole. Apparently it is the standard practise for treatment according to the dr.

I am to start on the amitryiptiline first and increase it every other day.

Then when I have reached my limit I take the prozac in the mornings as a pick me up from the ami.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Thank you.

The thing is, I feel and think I have something else, like an auto immune disorder. I feel like things such as sjogens meet my criteria for everything but when I ask the dr's about it being something else they seem to roll their eyes and dismiss me. I have a positive ANA but it is dismissed as it is a low positive.

I am a bit lost, but I really do not want to heavily medicate.

I dont know what is making you think that you couldnt have ME (not meeting all the needed criteria??), but if you look on page 3 of the canadian consensus doc... you will see that sjogens is listed as a co-morbid entity to this. Many get Sjogens due to it.

ME is likely to be an autoimmune issue to and hence other autoimmune issues are more common with it too eg Hashimoto's thyroiditis is also listed as a co-morbid entity to it as well.

Best luck in working out where you fit with things but dont rule ME as out if you can tick all the boxes.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
cosmo
Are both medications for depression or is amitryptiline for sleep? Because if you're treating depression then you should only try one medication at a time and start on a low dose. Prozac should be started at 10 mg and amitriptyline (for sleep) should be no higher than 25 mg starting out.

My CFS specialist started me out with only 10mg for amitrypiline for sleep and I was told to raise it after a week (each week raise, if it wasnt working for my sleep seeing it was being taken for sleep and not depression, it's sleep affects were meant to be seen in that week), till I was taking 50mg which was the maximum does he uses for "sleep "issues in his CFS patients. If it didnt work by that point he considered the drug had failed for this. (I developed the bowel issues with it at about 30mg after the 2-3 week but didnt connect the drug to my much worst bowel issues at first, I didnt connect things till I'd actually finished the trial).

cosmos I assume your doctor is going to have you stop taking it if it doesnt work for sleep? and only have you on the one drug? (Im not knocking your doctor but it seems weird to me to have you on two drugs if the amitrip dont work.. for most of us it dont.. it scored extremely low on a CFS patient survey)
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
http://www.news-medical.net/health/SSRIs-How-They-Work.aspx
Neuroprotection
Studies have suggested that SSRIs may promote the growth of new neural pathways orneurogenesis in rats.
Also, SSRIs may protect against neurotoxicity caused by other compounds (for instance MDMA and fenfluramine) as well as from depression itself. SSRIs have been found to induce programmed cell death in Burkitt lymphoma and the brain tumors neuroblastomaand glioma with minimal effect on normal tissue.
Anti-inflammatory and immunomodulation
Recent studies show pro-inflammatory cytokine processes take place during depression, mania and bipolar disorder, in addition to somatic disease (such as autoimmune hypersensitivity) and it is possible that symptoms manifest in these psychiatric illnesses are being attenuated by pharmacological effect of antidepressants on the immune system.
SSRIs have been shown to be immunomodulatory and anti-inflammatory against pro-inflammatory cytokine processes, specifically on the regulation of Interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) and Interleukin-10 (IL-10), as well as TNF-alpha and Interleukin-6 (IL-6).
Antidepressants have also been shown to suppress TH1 upregulation.
Future serotonergic antidepressants may be made to specifically target the immune system by either blocking the actions of pro-inflammatory cytokines or increasing the production of anti-inflammatory cytokines.
The effect of newer serotonin-noradrenalin antidepressants on cytokine production: a review of the current literature.
Abstract
Cytokines may influence brain activities especially during stressful conditions, and elevated levels of IL-6 and C-reactive protein have been pointed out in subjects with Major Depression. If pro-inflammatory cytokines play a causative role in major depressive disorders, one would expect that antidepressants may down-regulate these cytokines or interfere with their actions, leading to improvement of depressive symptoms. Accumulating evidence has been published that antidepressants modulate cytokine production and this is particularly true for Tricyclics and Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), but the influence of newer antidepressants acting on both serotonin (5-HT) and norepinephrine (NE) such as venlafaxine, duloxetine and mirtazapine on cytokine levels has not been extensively studied. However, both pre-clinical and clinical studies examined in this review have demonstrated that newer serotonin-noradrenalin antidepressants can inhibit the production and/or release of pro-inflammatory cytokines and stimulate the production of anti-inflammatory cytokines, suggesting that reductions in inflammation might contribute to treatment response. Moreover, the results of the present review support the notion that the serotonin-noradrenalin antidepressants venlafaxine and mirtazapine may influence cytokine secretion in patients affected by MD, restoring the equilibrium between their physiological and pathological levels and leading to recovery. To date, no studies have evaluated the effect of duloxetine, the newest serotonin-noradrenalin antidepressant, on cytokine levels and therefore this should be evaluated in future studies.
 

EtherSpin

Senior Member
Messages
257
Location
Melbourne , Australia
this thread has spooked me a tad! I had a very intense, out of nowhere onset of non situational depression,knots in the stomach, constant sinking feeling like standing over an abyss, bit like the feeling for the first 20 seconds after someone informs you a relative died but remaining all day! as I have two young daughters I dont want to see me laid up and in despair I got to my CFS Doc ASAP and got put on 1 prozac daily due to cost (can't afford buproprion AKA Wellbutrin yet, need income protection insurance claim to come through!) . on the one hand, I doubt it would still be in circulation after so long if it wasn't a godsend for some people but man, very easy to find threads online full of people with issues with it triggering suicidal thoughts, anxiety attacks etc!
on the other hand I feel a reprieve from the worst symptom due to having moved forward a step and spoken to a professional. if anyone has had success with prozac be sure to chime in! (just for depression i mean, not the CFS)
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Yeah, I'm doing well with prozac. Don't listen to all the scare mongering. There are far worse drugs than SSRIs. I take only half the regular dose though, so I probably avoid some side effects this way. The trick is to start low and not go higher than needed. Usually SSRIs are overdosed IMO.
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,099
Location
australia (brisbane)
Its an individual thing as well as trial and error. I used prozac once at a low dose and it increased my appetite way too much for me. In the past i have found low doses of zoloft ok and also lexapro but they all tend to make me abit sluggish but if i feel i need them i would go back on them. Currently finding 5htp is helping.
 

EtherSpin

Senior Member
Messages
257
Location
Melbourne , Australia
Yeah, I'm doing well with prozac. Don't listen to all the scare mongering. There are far worse drugs than SSRIs. I take only half the regular dose though, so I probably avoid some side effects this way. The trick is to start low and not go higher than needed. Usually SSRIs are overdosed IMO.
ah! mine is in capsules and I just take one a day so not sure how to halve but Ill see how I go anyway

Heapsreal, I didnt know there was danger of appetite increase, Im doing intermittent fasting to Ill try to stay on that as its virtually habit now. ill let the comfort of habit dictate and see how it goes
 

Goodness to M.E.

Senior Member
Messages
102
Location
Adelaide
Review: Book by Robert Whitaker; New York, Crown Publishers, 2010, 416 pp.

Robert Whitaker, a former Boston Globe reporter, was curious about why there has been such a large increase of disabling mental illness in the United States. His book, Anatomy of an Epidemic: Magic Bullets, Psychiatric Drugs, and the Astonishing Rise of Mental Illness in America (Crown Publishers, 2010), begins with these data points: in 1987, the U.S. mental illness disability rate was 1 in every 184 Americans, but by 2007 the mental illness disability rate had more than doubled to 1 in every 76 Americans.

During this same time period, there has also been a huge increase in psychiatric drug use. Prior to 1988 when Prozac hit the market, the annual U.S. gross for antidepressant and antipsychotic drugs was less than $1 billion, but today those two classes of psychiatric drugs alone gross more than $25 billion a year in the United States. The question for Whitaker was: is it just a coincidence that disabling mental illness and psychiatric drug use have been rapidly increasing at the same time?

Whitaker does not discount cultural factors that may have something to do with this dramatic increase in mental illness disability. However, he discovered that the most scientifically identifiable factor for the increase of severe psychiatric problems is the increase in psychiatric drug use. He identified a frightening trend: long-term psychiatric drug use has caused children and adults with minor emotional problems to have severe and chronic disorders that result in mental illness disabilities.

How Psychiatric Drugs Create Chronic Illness

Whitaker examined the scientific literature over the last 50 years with respect to 2 related questions. First, do psychiatric medications alter the long-term course of mental disorders for better or for worse? Specifically, do they increase the likelihood that a person will be able to function well over the long-term or do they increase the likelihood that a person will end up on disability? Second, how often do patients with a mild disorder have a bad reaction to an initial psychiatric drug that can lead to long-term disability? For example, how frequently does a person with a mild bout of depression become manic in reaction to an antidepressant and is then diagnosed with bipolar disorder?

He discovered that while psychiatric medications can, for some people, be effective over the short term, these drugs, in long-term use, increase the likelihood that a person will become chronically ill, increasing the possibility that a mild psychological problem will worsen into a debilitating illness. This is especially clear and tragic in the case of children.

Not too long ago, "juvenile bipolar disorder" was very rarely diagnosed, yet today it is increasingly common. Whitaker points out, "When you research the rise of juvenile bipolar illness in this country, you see that it appears in lockstep with the prescribing of stimulants for ADHD and antidepressants for depression.... Once psychiatrists started putting 'hyperactive' children on Ritalin, they started to see prepubertal children with manic symptoms." Increasing numbers of children have also been prescribed antidepressants, such as Prozac, and a significant percentage of these young people have become manic in reaction to their antidepressants.

These frightening manic reactions result in heavy-duty antipsychotic drugs as well as "drug cocktails" made up of multiple psychiatric drugs. Whitaker discovered that a high percentage of these medicated kids end up as "rapid cyclers," which means they have severe bipolar symptoms that put them on a path to be chronically ill throughout their lives. Also, antipsychotics such as Zyprexa cause a host of physical problems, including diabetes. Whitaker concludes, "When you add up all this information, you end up documenting a story of how the lives of hundreds of thousands of children in the United States have been destroyed in this way."
 

Thomas

Senior Member
Messages
325
Location
Canada
I used to take imipramine on days or weeks when I had depression. However, now I use the drug amisulpride off label as an antidepressant, and I find it is excellent. Amisulpride gives me a more natural feeling mood boost (I find the TCA antidepressant effects a bit of an artificial feeling). I take just 12.5 mg of amisulpride daily. Amisulpride also noticeably improves the sound sensitivity symptoms of ME/CFS, which is a great boon.
Hip did you ever take the amisulpride along with the imipramine? I have the amisulpride here but I am also on 25 mg of amitryptyline (for sleep and IBS) which I have been on for about 10 years (which pre-dated my ME onset).

It seems that there are serious life threatening interactions between amisulpride and TCA's on the drug interaction checker you recently provided me, but this may refer to anti-psychotic doses of amisulpride and antidepressant doses of amitryptyline, both of which are significantly higher than the doses I want to try (12/5 mg of amisulpride). So just curious if you ever took them together?

See http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/medicines/brain-and-nervous-system/a7549/solian-amisulpride/
 

daisybell

Senior Member
Messages
1,613
Location
New Zealand
I've been put on amitriptyline twice by doctors, and have horrible side effects and no apparent benefits at 10mg. I still have a prescription for Prozac somewhere that I have no intention of ever taking. For me, I feel I am better on nothing.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
Hip did you ever take the amisulpride along with the imipramine?

Looking back at my notes, there were a few occasions when I took imipramine 25 mg + amisulpride 12.5 mg together on the same day.

I tend to take imipramine on an occasional basis for a few days, just when I have worsening depression. So I never took imipramine for more than a few days anyway.


Looking at the drug interactions between imipramine and amisulpride, it look like one of the major dangers is that both drugs increase the QT interval of the heart.

With a longer QT interval, people can literally drop dead on the spot, because the heart can suddenly stop beating; the heart can just come to a complete stop on its own, if you have long QT.


To tell you the truth, I don't generally check for drug interactions with amisulpride, because I am taking such a low dose of this drug that I assume it's not necessary (I could be wrong though). Of course, maybe I have an subconscious death wish, and would secretly be quite happy to drop dead on the spot, leaving all the misery of ME/CFS behind, and that's why I don't check amisulpride interactions!

I do in general check drug interactions though.
 

Thomas

Senior Member
Messages
325
Location
Canada
Lol @Hip I hear ya, man. I probably share that secret subconscious desire most of the time. It's not the painless sudden dropping dead that I'm frightened of. It's suddenly dropping and not dying and ending up in even worse shape that's the fear.

I'm not sure how I am going to proceed. But I thank you for the response, as always.
 

Hip

Senior Member
Messages
17,858
I'm not sure how I am going to proceed. But I thank you for the response, as always.

I'd be a little careful, as an increase QT interval is not something you would notice, until that is you just out of the blue drop dead!