Scientists reveal quirky feature of Lyme disease bacteria

[Jarod]

Saito collaborated with biomedical researchers at Johns Hopkins University, applying his proteomic techniques to explore proteins in a terrestrial organism, the bacteria that cause Lyme Disease. Unlike all other known organisms, Borrelia burgdorferi need manganese (blue dot), rather than iron, to serve as linchpins bonded into key enzymes. The scientists found that to cause disease, Borrelia require unusually high levels of manganese.

The findings open new avenues to search for ways to attack the bacteria. Credit: P. John Hart, University of Texas Scientists have confirmed that the pathogen that causes Lyme Disease—unlike any other known organism—can exist without iron, a metal that all other life needs to make proteins and enzymes. Instead of iron, the bacteria substitute manganese to make an essential enzyme, thus eluding immune system defenses that protect the body by starving pathogens of iron.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-03-scientists-reveal-quirky-feature-lyme.html#jCp

Asklipia I thought of you when I read this because of your interest in manganese.

 

[snowathlete]

That's interesting. I knew about its non-dependants on iron but its use of manganese could be important. I wonder why it developed this unique trait...Borrelia is very complex.

 

[Sushi]

Interesting. I've been taking manganese--wonder if I am feeding the beast?

Sushi

 

[Jarod]

I probably have lyme and noticed that manganese on an empty stomach helps at times. It's almost like flicking a switch for something in my GI tract. Hard to describe.

Maybe we are feeding the beast, but maybe we also develop a manganese deficiency because of the lyme taking manganese from the critical organ tissues that get heavily infected?

 

[sianrecovery]

I just had a debate about this on a lyme forum. Its interesting; especially in the way Klinghart now likes to push his supplement The Core, for HPU/KPU, which is chock full of managanese. I got diagnosed with that, but when I took the supplement, concluded it didnt help pretty quickly. Obviously that could be herx, but I am also quite tired of the response 'its herx' everytime a treatment makes someone feel worse.
One of the better educated in science responders on the other forum made the point, in response to my post about avoiding too much of certain minerals, that the bugs need this stuff because we do - so simple avoidance may actually produce a paradoxical response in the body up-regulating or down regulating its usage, and that the bugs may be able to use it better than us. And that you might be able to find a useful way to interupt the cycle of the bacteria from this kind of knowledge.
Absolutely. Butin the absence of that knowledge, I'm going to continue to be cautious of what I take. Part of the problem is docs etc treating ME/CFS and ignoring infectious disease or immune dysregulation. If you just focus on restoring mito's, or easing fatigue, you may end up going down routes that encourage the replication of the little blighters.

 

[Asklipia]

Asklipia I thought of you when I read this because of your interest in manganese.

Thanks! Interesting indeed!

 

[Lotus97]

I probably have lyme and noticed that manganese on an empty stomach helps at times. It's almost like flicking a switch for something in my GI tract. Hard to describe.

Maybe we are feeding the beast, but maybe we also develop a manganese deficiency because of the lyme taking manganese from the critical organ tissues that get heavily infected?

I'm confused as far as whether or not to take minerals on an empty stomach or with food. I've heard differing opinons. Explain (please)

 

[Jarod]

I'm confused as far as whether or not to take minerals on an empty stomach or with food. I've heard differing opinons. Explain (please)

Hi Lotus,

Taking manganese and zinc on an empty stomach per KlingHardt KPU protocol was something I tried one time.

Seemed to help noticably for awhile. I later tested high in zinc, so I have backed off that.

I'm highly suspect of having issues with low in minerals, but have no idea how to correctly supplement them or to test levels to make sure I don't get too much of something. I'll ask my doc about that next time.

Jarod

 

[Marlène]

I tested my minerals some time ago and decided to complement all of them which were too low. Tp me it's impossible to heal when you're deficient in nutrients. It costs me a fortune but I'm in so much better shape than before.

 

[Lotus97]

Rich said that borrelia also feed on cysteine causing a methylation block due to gluathione depletion. I started a thread about Lyme and Methylation.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...glutathione-depletion-rich-vanks-posts.21563/
This is what he said about Bb and cysteine:

richvank, Jul 27, 2012
Hi, LIz.

I just want to say that I think that continuing with methylation as part of your overall treatment program for Lyme disease is a good idea. Improving the function of the methylation cycle and raising the levels of the folates and glutathione with a methylation protocol should help the function of the immune system, and particularly the cell-mediated immune system, which is necessary to go after the intracellular forms of the Borrelia bacteria.

Some of the ILADS physicians have incorporated methylation treatment into their overall protocols. The feedback I have received has been positive. I've been invited to speak at the ILADS conference in November, and I plan to talk about including methylation treatment in their Lyme treatment protocols.

I think that there is good reason to believe that Lyme disease can lead into ME/CFS for people who are genetically susceptible, and in fact, this may be what causes the development of "chronic Lyme disease."

Borrelia are known to take cysteine from their hosts, and that, together with the inflammation that is produced by the immune system, can be expected to lower glutathione in Lyme disease, which has been observed.

According to the GD-MCB hypothesis, if glutathione goes low enough, it provokes a functional B12 deficiency, which in turn leads to a partial block in methylation, followed by loss of folates and development of a stable vicious circle that makes ME/CFS chronic.

The resulting suppression of cell-mediated immunity likely makes it difficult for the body to fight Borrelia, forming another vicious circle. I think that part of the solution to this is to lift the partial methylation cycle block, while going after the bacteria directly is necessary as well.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Lotus97]

Rich said that borrelia also feed on cysteine causing a methylation block due to gluathione depletion. I started a thread about Lyme and Methylation.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...glutathione-depletion-rich-vanks-posts.21563/

I forgot to mention, methylation will also increase cysteine. And glutathione is made up of cysteine, glutamate, and glycine so if you have excess glutamate then cysteine (and maybe also glycine) will help convert that into glutathione.

 

[Lotus97]

I posted earlier in this thread about L-cysteine possibly being used to reduce glutamate so I thought I should follow up on that. It seems Rich is saying that L-cystine (not L-cysteine) might be better. I'm not sure if anyone has actually tried this, but this is his explanation for why it could work:
(note: L-cysteine, L-cystine, and NAC could cause problems for people with mercury toxicity)

Quite a few PWMEs who have tried the methylation protocol have reported that they have experienced an increase in symptoms associated with excitotoxicity when they began (anxiety, insomnia, nervousness). In the past, I have suggested trying acetyl glutathione or liposomal glutathione to counter this. One or two people reported that they thought this helped them.

Now I would like to suggest something else that I think would help with this, which is less expensive: L-cystine. Note here that I do mean L-cystine, not L-cysteine. (Cystine is the oxidized form of cysteine, consisting of two cysteine molecules bound together by a disulfide bond.) Douglas Laboratories is one producer of L-cystine, and there are at least a couple of suppliers of it on the internet advertising 60 capsules, 500 mg each, for $16.50. I would suggest starting with a dosage of 500 mg and increasing to as much as 1,500 mg, depending on the response. L-cystine should not be taken by people who have a tendency to develop cystine kidney stones, or people who suspect that they have a high body burden of mercury, because L-cystine may move mercury around. And as always, I recommend working with a physician while on this protocol.

Here is the rationale:

I believe that the increase in excitotoxicity results from a further drop in the glutathione levels in the astrocytes (helper cells) in the brain, when the protocol is begun. (We know from the recent MRS measurements of Shungu et al. that glutathione is already somewhat depleted in the brain in ME/CFS.) The further drop in glutathione lowers the production of ATP by the mitochondria of these cells, and they then have less energy for pumping glutamate out of the synapses and recycling it. When glutamate builds up, it overexcites the NMDA receptors, and that produces excitotoxicity.

If this is true, then it would seem that we may be able to lower the excitotoxicity if we can support the glutathione levels in the astrocytes as this protocol is begun.

According to the Dringen model, the astrocytes make their glutathione using cystine as their source of cysteine. Cystine is obtained from the blood, and is able to pass through the blood-brain barrier.

How does cystine normally get into the blood? The liver produces glutathione from the constituent amino acids that it receives from the diet via the intestine and the portal vein blood flow. The liver exports some of its glutathione to the circulating blood, and enzymes break down the glutathione into its constituent amino acids. The cysteine is mostly oxidized to cystine, and some of this is taken up from the blood by the brain.

When the methylation protocol is begun, the activity of the methionine synthase enzyme in the liver is increased by supplementing B12 and folate forms. This causes more of the homocysteine to be converted to methionine, so less is available to support synthesis of glutathione. One result of this is that the cystine level in the blood goes down, so that less of it is available to the brain.

It would therefore seem that if L-cystine were supplemented, it would augment the cystine in the blood and increase the supply available to the brain, and hence to the astrocytes. Hopefully, this would raise the glutathione levels in these cells, and increase their ability to remove glutamate from the synapses, lowering the excitotoxicity. Ingested cystine is not metabolized significantly by the liver, because it does not import cystine readily.

If anybody decides to try this, I would be interested to hear the results, whatever they turn out to be. Thanks.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Lotus97]

It seems mycoplasma, a Lyme coinfection, feeds on arginine. Stephen Buhner, author of Healing Lyme and a new book on Lyme coinfections bartonella and mycoplasma, says that it's actually a good idea to supplement with arginine even though it might be "feeding the beast".
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/uncategorized/okay-to-supplement-l-arginine-with-mycoplasma/

Dear Stephen,
I read an article on the Rain-Tree website about supplementing l-arginine with mycoplasma, saying: “upplementing back the depleted amino acids has been reported to be helpful in some recovering from these infections. These include L-cysteine, L-tyrosine, L-glutamine, L-carnitine, and malic acid. Remember, however, that mycoplasmas thrive on arginine! Avoid L-arginine supplements and multi-amino acid formulas containing L-arginine, as well as foods rich in arginine to avoid feeding the mycoplasmas. The richest food sources of arginine (to avoid) are nuts and seeds, including the oils derived from seeds and nuts which should be eliminated or drastically reduced in the diet.” Under these circumstances, is the use of L-arginine when treating mycoplasma still okay? Also, would it be okay to take milk thistle, which is a seed?

Stephen’s response:
Here is the skinny on mycoplasmas and arginine: many mycoplasmas take arginine from the body to grow. THINK ABOUT IT: many mycoplasmas take arginine from the body to grow. WE, their human hosts, NEED arginine to be healthy. The mycoplasmas are going to get arginine no matter what. In fact what they do is scavenge if from your body’s tissues. That depletes your body of that substance and believe me, it is a crucial substance that you really do need. Some websites share horror stories About FEEDING the mycoplasmas if you take L-arginine. No matter what they will get it one way or another, so it matters not, for them, if you take a supplement or not. However FOR YOU, it is rather crucial to keep your arginine levels high since it is essential to your healthy functioning. Further, a number of mycoplasmas are actually sensitive to arginine, it can reduce their numbers in the body. So no matter what, you should be taking an L-arginine supplement or else eating foods high in arginine. Several score peer reviewed journal papers have noted that the only way to resolve cellular problems in infected mycoplasma cells is TO REPLACE THE ARGININE. So, yes, take the arginine. And the milk thistle is good to take as well.

 

[Asklipia]

It seems mycoplasma, a Lyme coinfection, feeds on arginine. Stephen Buhner, author of Healing Lyme and a new book on Lyme coinfections bartonella and mycoplasma, says that it's actually a good idea to supplement with arginine even though it might be "feeding the beast".
http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/uncategorized/okay-to-supplement-l-arginine-with-mycoplasma/

Same for manganese.