Narcotic (Opioid) Pain Medications Relieve Some of my Neurological ME/CFS Symptoms

[Tristen]

I can attest that opioids make me feel and think almost as good if I was not sick!

I believe I said earlier that this is true for me as well. The fact that these drugs do work so well should be well known to all the me/cfs docs, and I would think that because of this they would have an arsenal of treatment options. I did see the post about Cheney.

I do appreciate very much all the great input on this issue since for me it's about finding an alternative to the narcotics, that will do just as well. I just spent some time using the Fentnyl patches for my arthritis pain.....lo and behold, they work just as well. Plus I don't have to deal with the pills. But, I want to not even use the patches.....gotta be a better (non-narcotic) option.

 

[Hip]

Here are some details of some experiments I conducted with a super potent, but short acting, mu-opioid called dermorphin. Dermorphin has a very short half life of just 1.3 minutes, so most of this drug will have left the body just 15 minutes after taking it.

The interesting thing I found was that no benefits were observed at the time of taking this dermorphin mu-opioid drug, but in the following days (long after this drug had completely left my system), some significant improvements to my ME/CFS cognitive symptoms were noted (along with some less than beneficial side effects from dermorphin).

This suggests that some mu-opioids may provide lasting benefits, even after they have left the body.

 

[Ema]

Great thread...

I can't believe how much better I feel when I take 2 Nurofen Plus (200mg Ibuprofen & Codeine phosphate 12.8mg). For me it is the difference between staying home or being able to get out and go to the shops (or out to a social function). ATM I am having trouble walking more than 10metres, this is the only drug that helps me.

Nurofen Plus is a gift from the gods. It's the thing I miss most about living in London. That and the Parmesan cheese at Bluebird.

Ema

 

[Ema]

Thanks for sharing your experience on this Marlene. I'm kinda scared of LDN after having such horrible reactions to it more than once in the past. But maybe it's time for another try, especially since it's been so many years and things change.

Has anyone tried DPA to boost endorphins? I've had some success with this but nothing like opiates. However, opiates can suppress ACTH in time and that is no good for those of us with HPA axis dysfunction either. It's always something!

Ema

 

[Marco]

Hey Marco, thanks for the shout out. You might be interested in this thread I started a while back, at least the first couple of posts which mention glial cells,:

How The Brain Cleans Itself

Wayne

Thanks Wayne.

That is interesting and ties into aspects of neuroinflammation that I've been blogging about e.g.

Rönnbäck and Hansson propose an inflammatory state where the efficient transmission of information via glutamate is disrupted with a decrease in the ability to discriminate signal from noise and in effect the sensory filter 'disintegrates' :

“Based on this literature and observations from our own laboratory and others on the role of astroglial cells in the fine-tuning of glutamate neurotransmission we present the hypothesis that the proinflammatory cytokines tumor necrosis factor-α, IL-1β and IL-6 could be involved in the pathophysiology of mental fatigue through their ability to attenuate the astroglial clearance of extracellular glutamate, their disintegration of the blood brain barrier, and effects on astroglial metabolism and metabolic supply for the neurons, thereby attenuating glutamate transmission.”

Heat Shock Proteins

Heat shock proteins are 'molecular chaperones' that maintain the physiological and functional integrity of organisms by helping to collect and recycle cells damaged by oxidative stress induced by environmental stressors. Ageing may be considered the gradual malfunctioning of cellular repair mechanisms with HSP expression increasingly impaired with age. The findings of heat shock proteins at the site of neural 'aggregations' in neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and Huntington's disease might suggest they provide a protective response against neurodegeneration (Peter Csermely and Ichiro Yahara, 2003).

Two groups of researchers however have independently found a defective (attenuated) HSP response to oxidative stress induced by exercise in ME/CFS patients (Thambirajah et al, 2008, Jammes et al 2009, 2011). In the 2011 Jammes study it should be noted that this dysfunction was most strongly associated with those reporting a prior viral illness or previously engaging in high intensity exercise.

A defect in this 'glymphatic' system could contribute to insufficient clearance of extracellular glutamate which would be exacerbated with a deficit in the HSP response?

 

[Marco]

Sorry, I've got caught up in other things and haven't the time to summarise but here are a few links to studies into the neuroprotective role of progesterone :

Progesterone Protective Effects In Neurodegeneration And Neuroinflammation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23639063

Progesterone increases brain-derived neuroptrophic factor expression and protects against glutamate toxicity in a mitogen-activated protein kinase- and phosphoinositide-3 kinase-dependent manner in cerebral cortical explants.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17549730

Progesterone alters GABA and glutamate responsiveness: a possible mechanism for its anxiolytic action

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0006899387906342

Neuroactive steroids, their metabolites, and neuroinflammation

http://jme.endocrinology-journals.org/content/49/3/R125.abstract

Progesterone reduces depression-like behavior in a murine model of Alzheimer’s Disease

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2693732/


Which may go some way to explaining why the menopause is so miserable?

But I wouldn't rush out and start using progesterone :

Continuous and Cyclic Progesterone Differentially Interact with Estradiol in the Regulation of Alzheimer-Like Pathology in Female 3×Transgenic-Alzheimer's Disease Mice

Continuous progesterone did not affect β-amyloid levels when delivered alone but blocked the Aβ-lowering action of E2. In contrast, cyclic progesterone significantly reduced β-amyloid levels by itself and enhanced rather than inhibited the E2 effects. These results provide new insight into the neural interactions between E2 and progesterone that may prove valuable in optimizing HT regimens in postmenopausal women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875823/

 

[Tristen]

Has anyone tried DPA to boost endorphins? I've had some success with this but nothing like opiates. However, opiates can suppress ACTH in time and that is no good for those of us with HPA axis dysfunction either. It's always something!

Ema

DPA?

 

[Tristen]

Here are some details of some experiments I conducted with a super potent, but short acting, mu-opioid called dermorphin. Dermorphin has a very short half life of just 1.3 minutes, so most of this drug will have left the body just 15 minutes after taking it.

The interesting thing I found was that no benefits were observed at the time of taking this dermorphin mu-opioid drug, but in the following days (long after this drug had completely left my system), some significant improvements to my ME/CFS cognitive symptoms were noted (along with some less than beneficial side effects from dermorphin).

This suggests that some mu-opioids may provide lasting benefits, even after they have left the body.

This is very interesting. I get the positive results for 1-2 days after stopping a drug like Hydrocodone....that's supposedly long after it has completely cleared from my system.

Another interesting puzzle as to why one opioid with a shorter half life, may effect our symptoms even longer after discontinuation......Wouldn't it be nice to find one that could be taken like once a week with full effects on our symptoms.

 

[Ema]

DPA?

D-Phenylalanine

http://www.moodcure.com/restoring-natural-opioid-system.html

Ema

 

[Tristen]

D-Phenylalanine

http://www.moodcure.com/restoring-natural-opioid-system.html

Ema

Great link, thank you

 

[Hip]

Nurofen Plus is a gift from the gods. It's the thing I miss most about living in London.

How many tablets of Nurofen Plus did you typically take, Ema?

Each tablet of Nurofen Plus contains codeine phosphate 12.8 mg + ibuprofen 200 mg.

 

[Ema]

How many tablets of Nurofen Plus did you typically take, Ema?

Each tablet of Nurofen Plus contains codeine phosphate 12.8 mg + ibuprofen 200 mg.

Generally 6-8 tablets a day.

But I was also recovering from 3 surgeries to my leg from being hit as a pedestrian in a crosswalk by a motorcycle and trying to re-adjust to living in a walking city as opposed to the US where we ride everywhere. It was a tough time pain-wise.

It's worth noting that I didn't have any issues with tolerance or withdrawal though when I moved back to the States and my supply ran out.

Ema

 

[Hip]

when I moved back to the States and my supply [of Nurofen Plus] ran out.

You could of course try buying Nurofen Plus online from the UK, but the exchange rate and the shipping may make it expensive.

 

[Hip]

here are a few links to studies into the neuroprotective role of progesterone

I did some experiments taking this hormone progesterone a while ago (not to be confused with pregnenolone, another hormone).

Progesterone made me feel more calm and relaxed, as it has an anti-anxiety effect (presumably its anxiolytic effect comes from its modulation of GABA and glutamate). I also found progesterone seemed to improve my mood a little (antidepressant effect).

Progesterone is sold (without prescription) as an inexpensive TRANSDERMAL CREAM that is easily applied to the skin.

 

[Marco]

I did some experiments taking this hormone progesterone a while ago (not to be confused with pregnenolone, another hormone).

Progesterone made me feel more calm and relaxed, as it has an anti-anxiety effect (presumably its anxiolytic effect comes from its modulation of GABA and glutamate). I also found progesterone seemed to improve my mood a little (antidepressant effect).

Progesterone is sold (without prescription) as an inexpensive TRANSDERMAL CREAM that is easily applied to the skin.

Why did you stop (assuming you did) given the benefits, low cost and availability?

 

[ukxmrv]

I use the codeine based painkillers to put me to sleep at night sometimes. They don't have any other effects on me, apart from giving my terrible constipation if I take them for more than two nights. My guts seize up and create more pain.

Boots Asprin and Codeine plus I have a prescription Codeine/Paracetemol combo. Like Ema I had an accident and ended up with a supply. Apart from putting me to sleep they did little for the pain. I could still feel the pain intruding on the sleep.

They don't improve any of my ME viral symptoms or my energy or my PEM. My mood is pretty good normally so I didn't notice any change to that. My cognitive problems were just as bad. Because codeine painkillers make me sleep in a "knock me out" way (but not relaxed or clear headed) I feel more confused and tired. The opposite effect maybe?

Progesterone doesn't help my ME symptoms (I had injections as part of infertility treatment) and as my mood is ok I didn't notice any difference.

 

[Hip]

Why did you stop (assuming you did) given the benefits, low cost and availability?

When I tried progesterone a few years ago, I was suffering from extreme constant anxiety (generalized anxiety disorder), and I found that the anti-anxiety benefits of progesterone were not strong enough to counter my severe anxiety levels, compared to other anti-anxiety supplements and drugs I was using, so this is why I stopped progesterone.

However, these days, I my anxiety is completely under control and is very low (thanks to my anti-anxiety protocol), and so it might be worth me trying progesterone again, to see if its neuroprotective and neurogenesis properties are of benefit. I still have half a jar of progesterone cream, so I will start taking it straight away. I'll let you know if it has any cumulative benefits.

 

[Marco]

However, these days, I my anxiety is completely under control and is very low (thanks to my anti-anxiety protocol), and so it might be worth me trying progesterone again, to see if its neuroprotective and neurogenesis properties are of benefit. I still have half a jar of progesterone cream, so I will start taking it straight away. I'll let you know if it has any cumulative benefits.

I keep meaning to try your protocol Hip but I have gone back onto the curcumin which I felt helped.

Do please keep us posted.

 

[Asklipia]

I found this book extremely interesting. This supports my theory of Fake Folate Poisoning being at the root of a lot of our problems and shows how opiates come into play.
"Glutamate and Addiction", Barbara H. Herman ed.
ftp://195.214.211.1/books/DVD-022/H..._Glutamate_and_Addiction_(2002)(en)(464s).pdf

 

[Dufresne]

FWIW I was prescribed Propaolol (80mg then 40mg) for temperature regulation problems/severe heat intolerance as the Dr must have presumed (probably correctly) a sympathetic NS problem.

It certainly cured the overheating problem. I was absolutely freezing and although this was many years ago I remember feeling like death and had to quit them after a few days.

I had the 'absolutely freezing' thing while on Strattera several years ago and had to stop taking it after a few days. I remember trying to sleep (when this symptom was most noticeable) with three comforters on and still struggling to keep warm. I’m guessing this had to do with very high noradrenalin levels coupled with the the reuptake inhibition of this hormone/neurotransmitter -if that’s indeed how it works. I should add that I never tested my levels while this was happening. I’ve since tested them and they were in the normal range, which is where I was guessing they’d be, if not low, following my problems with vasoconstriction.