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B12 working but can't sleep.....

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
"What type of potassium are you taking? Someone with low stomach acid said that potassium gluconate didn't work for them, but potassium chloride did. Despite what some people think, I don't believe all methylation problems are related to low potassium, but it would be a good idea to rule it out."

I take Lo Salt as recommended by Dr Myhill. I use a small scoopful in each of the 3 glasses of water I have with meals to get my supplements down. If its hot weather I add it to all my drinks of water I have to take 1/4 Fludrocortisone at least 3 times a week or if its hot and I get sweaty. From memory I think its potassium chloride.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
"What type of potassium are you taking? Someone with low stomach acid said that potassium gluconate didn't work for them, but potassium chloride did. Despite what some people think, I don't believe all methylation problems are related to low potassium, but it would be a good idea to rule it out."

I take Lo Salt as recommended by Dr Myhill. I use a small scoopful in each of the 3 glasses of water I have with meals to get my supplements down. If its hot weather I add it to all my drinks of water I have to take 1/4 Fludrocortisone at least 3 times a week or if its hot and I get sweaty. From memory I think its potassium chloride.
Yeah, it is potassium chloride. It sounds like you're getting plenty of potassium then. It looks like your medication also causes low potassium so that's something to be aware of. If I remember correctly, dbkita has also taken Florinef/Fludrocortisone so he might be able to offer some tips as far as potassium dosage when taking that medication along with methylation.
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
I wasn't sure if the inflammation was from the norepinephrine or increasing methylation because the information about NE is confusing. It seems it's both proinflammatory and antiinflammatory.

Couldn't that also be from increasing methylation?
Norepinephrine to my knowledge is mostly pro inflammatory in all the ways that matter and excites the sympathetic nervous system. Were you maybe think of epinephrine for certain anti-inflammatory purposes?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Norepinephrine to my knowledge is mostly pro inflammatory in all the ways that matter and excites the sympathetic nervous system. Were you maybe think of epinephrine for certain anti-inflammatory purposes?
I know you keep saying that NE is inflammatory. Perhaps excessive NE is, but in general it has anti-inflammatory effects, as well as pro-inflammatory.

Activation of the sympathetic nervous system and release of catecholamines, such as norepinephrine (NE), regulate inflammation through interactions with the innate immune system. Although crosstalk between these two systems is clear, the role of NE in mediating inflammatory responses is less clear, with evidence of both pro- and anti-inflammatory effects. To further understand these paradoxical effects of NE, we examined the impact of cellular activation and differentiation on inflammatory cytokine production after NE administration to a human monocyte cell line. Using lipopolysaccharide (LPS) to induce cellular activation, we showed that NE inhibits interleukin (IL)-6 protein release from the monocytic form of the cell, when administered before LPS. However, treating the cells with NE after LPS-induced activation led to a decrease in NE's inhibitory effects. NE inhibition of LPS-induced IL-6 was shown to be mediated by the beta 2-adrenergic receptor (B2-AR) as well as cAMP. Interestingly, the decreased sensitivity to NE following monocyte activation by LPS was found to be mediated by a PKA-dependent decrease in B2-AR mRNA. Indeed, blocking PKA reversed B2-AR mRNA downregulation and restored cell sensitivity to NE. Differentiation of cells from the monocyte state to the macrophage state also resulted in decreased NE sensitivity, likely a result of increased mRNA expression of beta arrestin-2 (BARR-2), which can lead to B2-AR desensitization. Finally, LPS-induced activation of cells in the macrophage state completely abolished NE's anti-inflammatory effects, in association with both decreased B2-AR mRNA as well as decreased mRNA for BARR-2, which can inhibit inflammatory responses. To study the impact of NE on inflammation in vivo, we examined stress-induced NE and IL-6 release in patients with major depression versus healthy controls. We found that patients with depression exhibited reduced sensitivity to NE, as depressed patients with high NE responses to stress exhibited the highest stress-induced IL-6 responses. Taken together, these studies indicate that NE primarily functions to inhibit inflammation. However, the extent of NE's anti-inflammatory action is dynamic and depends on the physiological state of the cell. Dysregulation of NE's anti-inflammatory effects may contribute to pathology in diseases involving inflammation, such as depression.
https://etd.library.emory.edu/view/record/pid/emory:bcj49

And:

Locus ceruleus (LC)-supplied norepinephrine (NE) suppresses neuroinflammation in the brain. To elucidate the effect of LC degeneration and subsequent NE deficiency on Alzheimer's disease pathology, we evaluated NE effects on microglial key functions. NE stimulation of mouse microglia suppressed Abeta-induced cytokine and chemokine production and increased microglial migration and phagocytosis of Abeta. Induced degeneration of the locus ceruleus increased expression of inflammatory mediators in APP-transgenic mice and resulted in elevated Abeta deposition. In vivo laser microscopy confirmed a reduced recruitment of microglia to Abeta plaque sites and impaired microglial Abeta phagocytosis in NE-depleted APP-transgenic mice. Supplying the mice the norepinephrine precursor L-threo-DOPS restored microglial functions in NE-depleted mice. This indicates that decrease of NE in locus ceruleus projection areas facilitates the inflammatory reaction of microglial cells in AD and impairs microglial migration and phagocytosis, thereby contributing to reduced Abeta clearance. Consequently, therapies targeting microglial phagocytosis should be tested under NE depletion.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20231476
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
By definition I am talking excess norepinephrine. Wouldn't be having this conversation if we were talking the normal levels with no immune dysregulation. Ne stimulates microglial activation in some parts of the brain and not others. Studying depression is a whole oyher side of the spectrum. Read up if you want on sns stimulation. Definitivemind.com is a good source of info if you want to research more. And sorry many other papers I have read suggest it is not generally anti inflammatory. Il-6 is only one marker. Again abnormally low levels of ne whether in ne or induced with inhibitors is not imo a good yardstick for what to extrapolate when ne is high.

Edit: The first link you posted btw is a doctoral thesis. I scanned through bits of it. Still trying to make heads of it since it is 204 pages long.

Here are some links of use maybe:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004414 (excellent paper)
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/291/5/G877.full.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3301813/
http://stevebmd.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/cytokines-sing-the-blues2006.pdf (summarizes how different the impact is for the catecholamines on inflammatory response differentiating stress induced from innate inflammation as in infection and autoimmune disorder)

I think norepinephrine raises NF-kappa, raises TNF-alpha depending on tissue type (?), lowers IL beta (recent research suggests IL beta is both pro and anti inflammatory but one of the MAIN regulators of Th1 immune response, so I am not sure how to interpret your second link with regards to microglia). Looks like NE lowers IL-6 and IL-7. NF kappa is a big one though for the macrophages and things like autoimmune diseases.

Both of my endocrinologists (yes I have two collaborating) and my autoimmune specialist I see target NE for people with autoimmune disorders.

I'd love to be able to tell you what the autoimmune clinic at Stanford says but they have a minimum 2 year waiting list unless you have HIV.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
As you said, niacin (B3) is considered a methyl sponge. The way it works is mainly by using up SAMe. You might need a higher dose of TMG and/or SAMe now that you're supplementing with B3. I found this the other day from Dr. Ben
I've backed off the b-complex for now Lotus...but will restart after I restart benfotiamine, which I foolishly stopped about six weeks or so ago. Tingling in my feet (and worse pain) has been coming back...not good.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
dbkita,

Yeah, NF-kB is a bad mother. But perhaps whether NE is inflammatory or not is individual, based on other factors (like simultaneously low cortisol, the presence of a virus or autoantibodies, etc)?
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
dbkita,

Yeah, NF-kB is a bad mother. But perhaps whether NE is inflammatory or not is individual, based on other factors (like simultaneously low cortisol, the presence of a virus or autoantibodies, etc)?
I am sure epigenetic factors are big factor. But I like I said I think the people of interest on these forums with high inflammation (high rt3, high 1,25 calcitriol, high c3a or high c4a, etc) due to myriad sources (Lyme's, autoimmune, viral, gut dybioses, etc. are the ones who need to beware excess NE produced in the ANS.

This sort of differentiation between stress induced and pre-existing inflammatory disorder as discussed in the last paper I linked above may correlate with why some people who over methylate have lots of positive results greatly outweighing the negatives, while those of us who overmethylate with a pre-existing inflammation pattern, produce more catecholamines and amplify the underlying inflammation imbalance.

For me Dr Mariano equates NE upregulation --> inflammation increase --> pain. But I have an autoimmune disorder. So go figure.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
If niacinamide inhibits NF-kB and TNF-alpha could that have something to do with COMT and lowering norepinephrine or is that just a coincidence? It's so easy to make false connections. Especially if you are trying to make something fit into preconceived theory. This stuff is still pretty new to me. A few months adreno told me I was "getting a crash course in neuroscience, biochem and endocrinology":D
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
If niacinamide inhibits NF-kB and TNF-alpha could that have something to do with COMT and lowering norepinephrine or is that just a coincidence? It's so easy to make false connections. Especially if you are trying to make something fit into preconceived theory. This stuff is still pretty new to me. A few months adreno told me I was "getting a crash course in neuroscience, biochem and endocrinology":D
I am sorry can you rephrase the question. I honestly did not understand your first sentence. Sorry.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
I am sorry can you rephrase the question. I honestly did not understand your first sentence. Sorry.
I was talking about inflammation. Niacinamide inhibits NF-kB and TNF-alpha and it also speeds up COMT which would lower norepinephrine which could possibly cause inflammation.
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
I was talking about inflammation. Niacinamide inhibits NF-kB and TNF-alpha and it also speeds up COMT which would lower norepinephrine which could possibly cause inflammation.

Understood.

Any impact niacinamide has on COMT is trumped by it being a cofactor for catecholamine and serotonin production. Also niacinamide higher doses will tend to put some pressure on lowering SAMe depending on dosage (though niacin more strongly so). So any effect of "speeding" up COMT is going to be more than compensated by the enhanced neurotransmitter production imo. However, the SAMe effect is certainly powerful enough to reduce methylation if the dose is high enough.

As far as being effective as a NF-kappa and TNF-alpha suppressor while there is a lot of research to support this, from a practical perspective you would likely need pretty good doses to get noticeable benefit (i.e. not the doses found in your typical multivitamin or b100). Some people pushes levels of 1-2 grams of niacinamide to get anti-inflammatory support but at some point you have to worry about liver problems if memory serves.

I may be wrong but pound for pound I don't think niacinamide is as strong an anti-inflammatory as say quercetin or curcumin. Then again personally I can't touch quercetin since it is a COMT inhibitor and I end up with insomnia after a couple of days and curcumin rips my gut apart.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Yeah, I wouldn't put my money on niacinamide as an anti inflammatory. Curcumin is likely the most potent natural NF-kB inhibitor you can get your hands on. It's much more potent than ibuprofen for example.
Overall these results indicate that aspirin and ibuprofen are least potent, while resveratrol, curcumin, celecoxib, and tamoxifen are the most potent anti-inflammatory and antiproliferative agents of those we studied.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15489888/
 

SanDiego#1

SanDiego#1
Messages
280
Location
SouthEast USA
Thanks for the reply. No, I haven't seen a sleep specialist mainly because it only got really bad when my low b12 symptoms appeared so I assumed they were connected. That is something I should look into however. Oddly enough, since starting b12 supplements there's been a couple of nights were I've had the best sleep in years.


I have seen many CFIDS/ Physicians. I started having sleep issues where I would wake up at night startled and choking.
I saw a SLEEP SPECIALIST. I definitely have sleep Apnea and quite breathing during the night. They are going to do an in house sleep study as now I have an irregular heartbeat-maybe from this.
I take Hydroxy-B-12 injections 1 cc daily 10 mg. You have to take it early in the day AM. I then take Magnsium Sulfate 1 unit sub q inj. works well for me. Melatonin sets my heart racing off.Sleep specialist said he gives his patients up 5- 9 mg if they have problems. But takes it 3 hours before bed time.. Melatonin plus 5 htp work wonderful for me for many years. I am older now and have developed Sleep Apnea. Sub lingual and Methal never worked for me.

San Diego #1
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Understood.

Any impact niacinamide has on COMT is trumped by it being a cofactor for catecholamine and serotonin production. Also niacinamide higher doses will tend to put some pressure on lowering SAMe depending on dosage (though niacin more strongly so). So any effect of "speeding" up COMT is going to be more than compensated by the enhanced neurotransmitter production imo. However, the SAMe effect is certainly powerful enough to reduce methylation if the dose is high enough.

As far as being effective as a NF-kappa and TNF-alpha suppressor while there is a lot of research to support this, from a practical perspective you would likely need pretty good doses to get noticeable benefit (i.e. not the doses found in your typical multivitamin or b100). Some people pushes levels of 1-2 grams of niacinamide to get anti-inflammatory support but at some point you have to worry about liver problems if memory serves.

I may be wrong but pound for pound I don't think niacinamide is as strong an anti-inflammatory as say quercetin or curcumin. Then again personally I can't touch quercetin since it is a COMT inhibitor and I end up with insomnia after a couple of days and curcumin rips my gut apart.
That's interesting because I have been taking 700+ mg of B3 (mostly niacinamide), but also 1500 mg of quercetin. I really need to cut back on how many supplements I'm taking. There's all sort of repercussions it seems.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Melatonin sets my heart racing off.Sleep specialist said he gives his patients up 5- 9 mg if they have problems. But takes it 3 hours before bed time.. Melatonin plus 5 htp work wonderful for me for many years.
Sometimes people with that reaction to melatonin are taking too high a dose. Some people take less than 1 mg and find that more effective. But you say works well for you and yet it makes your heart race (?)
 

SanDiego#1

SanDiego#1
Messages
280
Location
SouthEast USA
Sometimes people with that reaction to melatonin are taking too high a dose. Some people take less than 1 mg and find that more effective. But you say works well for you and yet it makes your heart race (?)


Lotus- I left part of my post off. Melatonin worked well for me with 1 5htp with it for years. When I started getting older , it seemed to make my heart race and I could not sleep. Saw a Sleep Specialist and I have Sleep Apnea which was causing some of the heat racing. Started Mag sulfate inj at night sub q small amount. Cut out the Melatonin. Take B-12
inj Methal did not work. I do 1cc Hydroxy with 1/2 unit Folate inj in Am with many other vitamins. Going to have in house Sleep study done in a few weeks. Physician said it is better to rely on 2-3 different sleep meds at night. One to go to sleep, one if you wake up. That way you don't take a chance on becoming addicted. I take the smallest dose possible. I use Mag again if I wake up. Once I get the sleep study finished I think we will have more answers. I actually quit breathing 3-4 times during the short one.. A very small meal at night- bland if possible helps also. I would back down on all the vitamins and then start adding one at a time, that way you can see what works. Injections and cremes works best for me. They are easily absorbed. I would still see a Sleep Specialist. I will be wearing one of those mask-but I don't care if it helps my breathing and sleep.

San Diego #1

Hope this helps
 

SanDiego#1

SanDiego#1
Messages
280
Location
SouthEast USA
Lotus- I left part of my post off. Melatonin worked well for me with 1 5htp with it for years. When I started getting older , it seemed to make my heart race and I could not sleep. Saw a Sleep Specialist and I have Sleep Apnea which was causing some of the heat racing. Started Mag sulfate inj at night sub q small amount. Cut out the Melatonin. Take B-12
inj Methal did not work. I do 1cc Hydroxy with 1/2 unit Folate inj in Am with many other vitamins. Going to have in house Sleep study done in a few weeks. Physician said it is better to rely on 2-3 different sleep meds at night. One to go to sleep, one if you wake up. That way you don't take a chance on becoming addicted. I take the smallest dose possible. I use Mag again if I wake up. Once I get the sleep study finished I think we will have more answers. I actually quit breathing 3-4 times during the short one.. A very small meal at night- bland if possible helps also. I would back down on all the vitamins and then start adding one at a time, that way you can see what works. Injections and cremes works best for me. They are easily absorbed. I would still see a Sleep Specialist. I will be wearing one of those mask-but I don't care if it helps my breathing and sleep.

San Diego #1

Hope this helps
 

SanDiego#1

SanDiego#1
Messages
280
Location
SouthEast USA
By definition I am talking excess norepinephrine. Wouldn't be having this conversation if we were talking the normal levels with no immune dysregulation. Ne stimulates microglial activation in some parts of the brain and not others. Studying depression is a whole oyher side of the spectrum. Read up if you want on sns stimulation. Definitivemind.com is a good source of info if you want to research more. And sorry many other papers I have read suggest it is not generally anti inflammatory. Il-6 is only one marker. Again abnormally low levels of ne whether in ne or induced with inhibitors is not imo a good yardstick for what to extrapolate when ne is high.

Edit: The first link you posted btw is a doctoral thesis. I scanned through bits of it. Still trying to make heads of it since it is 204 pages long.

Here are some links of use maybe:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004414 (excellent paper)
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/291/5/G877.full.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3301813/
http://stevebmd.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/cytokines-sing-the-blues2006.pdf (summarizes how different the impact is for the catecholamines on inflammatory response differentiating stress induced from innate inflammation as in infection and autoimmune disorder)

I think norepinephrine raises NF-kappa, raises TNF-alpha depending on tissue type (?), lowers IL beta (recent research suggests IL beta is both pro and anti inflammatory but one of the MAIN regulators of Th1 immune response, so I am not sure how to interpret your second link with regards to microglia). Looks like NE lowers IL-6 and IL-7. NF kappa is a big one though for the macrophages and things like autoimmune diseases.

Both of my endocrinologists (yes I have two collaborating) and my autoimmune specialist I see target NE for people with autoimmune disorders.

I'd love to be able to tell you what the autoimmune clinic at Stanford says but they have a minimum 2 year waiting list unless you have HIV.

My God -you have two Dr. that agree? Our condition is so complicated , don't see why they can treat MS, and Lupus,
but not us! My problem is I find most of the specialist will not stay with a treatment or med long enough to see if it is working. Unless you are having serious side effects-try to let a patient stay on a treatment of course titrating dosages and etc, but don't keep changing the Protocal for the latest thing in Vogue. I have had two do that to me.
The Neutraceuticals I am getting from my Dr. are expensive.

San Diego #1
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Take B-12
inj Methal did not work. I do 1cc Hydroxy with 1/2 unit Folate inj in Am with many other vitamins.
When you say methylcobalamin injections didn't work do you mean it had no effect or had a bad effect? I've heard anecdotally that the quality of methyl injections is sometimes degraded (possibly due to light exposure?) and I'm just curious how prevalent this is. I've also heard people have good results with methylcobalamin injections.