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B12 working but can't sleep.....

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
I understand. We're all different in so many ways...

2 questions:

You said 'increased methionine synthase activity will simply drain down the trans-sulfuration pathway". This is a silly question perhaps, but drain what down the pathway?

2nd question:

The trans-sulfuration pathway -- is that the same thing as the sulfation pathway?

I ask this because I definitely have salicylate intolerance problems, and have had conflicting advice on which pathway or compound helps detox sals/phenols. Rich said glycine helps detoxify them, and yes, it does seem to help. Then other sites suggest calcium d-glucarate helps "glucuronidation" detox sals.

Have also read the following on several sites:

"Impaired sulfation leads to sensitvity to phenols and salycilates...

"These foods (high in salicylates/phenols) should be avoided if you are low in sulfates, because they require sulfates to process them."

That last sentence is why I believe I'm low in sulfates.

???

A. methyl donors

B. No. Trans-sulfuration can produce sulfates but is NOT the only way to make sulfates. If you are CBS positive I am not saying it is impossible but it seem unlikely you will be low in sulfates unless you have genetic defects elsewhere that block making sulfates. So I would advise testing. Maybe you are low. But then your CBS gene is somehow not being expressed much and that would be wonderful to have for a homozygote.


Edit: You are homozygote A360A! Never mind that is probably why. The other one is far more deleterious (the C667T). Dr Yasko pulls too many satellite SNPs in for my taste. A360A has been largely debunked as a problem at least on its own. Congratulations. Testing for urine sulfates may help you identify if you are low though. The best way for what you suspect is a 24 hour urine sulfate test through LabCorp or the equivalent.
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
Thanks so much Dbkita -- now I'll just have to read this about a dozen times for it to sink in. :)

p.s. And thanks for the 'good news' re the CBS issue. I'll have to ask her, but perhaps that's the same version of CBS that Anne_Likes_Red has, as she found that (contrary to Yasko's advice) she improved substantially after she increased protein and sulfur, rather than limiting it.
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
Thanks so much Dbkita -- now I'll just have to read this about a dozen times for it to sink in. :)

p.s. And thanks for the 'good news' re the CBS issue. I'll have to ask her, but perhaps that's the same version of CBS that Anne_Likes_Red has, as she found that (contrary to Yasko's advice) she improved substantially after she increased protein and sulfur, rather than limiting it.

Yeah that might be something for you to explore. I would get the strips and see where you come out. Then maybe also get a 24 hour urine sulfate reading from your doctor if possible. Sulfates is probably THE biomarker for CBS activity, even more so than ammonia. I am having to do the reverse and lower my protein some to reduce methionine and cysteine. I may end up borrowing a page from Ray Peat and adding gelatin into the mix since it is very low in sulfur containing amino acids. But you may very well be on the opposite side of the table.
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,270
Location
UK
Hey Dan

We have some similarities on our defects particularly the CBS/BHMT and I tested for low sulphate with Metametrix 744 ug/mg (690-2,988) (and also high Vanilmandelate, Homovandelate, 8-Hydroxyphenyllactate v.high,Adipate, Suberate, Pyruvate, L-Lactate, Citrate v. high off the charts, Cis-Aconitate, Isocitrate, a-Keto, Malate, Hydroxmethlyglutarate,, a-Hydroxybutyrate, if anyone can comment I would be most grateful)

This was however a few years ago. I have ordered sulphate strips despite the ridiculous delivery charge from a UK lab and still waiting after a week for them to come in. Not sure if I can manage to get a 24 hour unrine test from my doc thanks NHS.

I also have the salicylate problem showing in a private test - mild blocking of CL-synthase by a salicylate with poor ion-gating - D gate function. so must reduce salicylate in diet. Also comments by dbkita appreciated.

I have been building up with methyl`s (Mcb12 L-mFolate and other b`s in a multi no folic acid at all) at small amounts but think my histamine levels or histamine sensitivity has increased (don`t know which I have but I sneeze a lot) leading to spots all over my chest and the increase of intertestatial cystitis so am stopping until I get the sulphur strips.

I am stumped now with diet as it is already very restricted.
 

UM MAN

Senior Member
Messages
106
Location
Florida
I have tested my urine sulfate level many times during the day, and it is always consistantly above 1200.
And I have collected my urine for 24hrs and then tested with the test strips. It was still above 1200. My point is
why pay LABCORP to test your urine?????
 

Xara

Senior Member
Messages
135
Location
The Netherlands
I have been building up with methyl`s (Mcb12 L-mFolate and other b`s in a multi no folic acid at all) at small amounts but think my histamine levels or histamine sensitivity has increased (don`t know which I have but I sneeze a lot) leading to spots all over my chest and the increase of intertestatial cystitis so am stopping until I get the sulphur strips.
In the beginning, when I was at low doses of methylfolate and mB12, and tried to build up my aB12 AN for a quarter every other day to every day, I stopped taking all three because of a strange, strong pressure in my sinuses. Very unpleasant. I remember adreno had a similar reaction, he made the connection to rising histamine levels. He got over it, somehow. So did I: after two days or so of taking nothing, I slowly introduced the mB12 again, the mfolate and the aB12. That time it did not gave me any problems in the sinuses. So maybe, after stopping for a while, you too could succeed a second time, maybe your body simply needs more time to adjust? HTH.
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,270
Location
UK
Thanks Xara

This is my second attempt. I did better this time though. I am looking at cutting oxalates and salicylates.
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
I have tested my urine sulfate level many times during the day, and it is always consistantly above 1200.
And I have collected my urine for 24hrs and then tested with the test strips. It was still above 1200. My point is
why pay LABCORP to test your urine?????
Because the time profile of urine sulfates is not constant over 24 hours for most of us.
 
Messages
28
Location
Brandon, MB Canada
Update

Since my last post I've been experimenting with doses of mb12 and metafolin. In around Feb of this year I was taking 1000mcg of mb12 and around 400mcg of metafolin. I did start experiencing deeper sleep but later in the night and only for around 2 hours. I also felt terrible during the day (sluggish, nauseous, fatigue). I then stopped taking both for a couple of months but all of my symptoms of low b12 returned. I started everything all over again but with lower amounts of metafolin. I'm sleeping much, much better but during the day I feel down and not myself. Kind of like a light depression with no sex drive and fatigue. Otherwise I haven't slept this well and deep for many years so it seems I'm heading in the right direction. I am being tested for celiac and am also planning on having tests done for the mthfr gene mutation. Any other suggestions?
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Update

Since my last post I've been experimenting with doses of mb12 and metafolin. In around Feb of this year I was taking 1000mcg of mb12 and around 400mcg of metafolin. I did start experiencing deeper sleep but later in the night and only for around 2 hours. I also felt terrible during the day (sluggish, nauseous, fatigue). I then stopped taking both for a couple of months but all of my symptoms of low b12 returned. I started everything all over again but with lower amounts of metafolin. I'm sleeping much, much better but during the day I feel down and not myself. Kind of like a light depression with no sex drive and fatigue. Otherwise I haven't slept this well and deep for many years so it seems I'm heading in the right direction. I am being tested for celiac and am also planning on having tests done for the mthfr gene mutation. Any other suggestions?
Not everyone needs the high doses recommended by some here. It sounds like you are figuring out what works best for you. Sometimes the symptoms are from too high a dose, but other times the symptoms can be from methylation itself in which case you might not need to lower the dose. I've found that getting enough sleep consistently was more hopeful than any of the supplements I've taken, but it wasn't enough for my depression. Hopefully yours will pass as you continue your recovery.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
From what I've read, in some ways I seem to be the opposite of you (dbkita) -- niacinamide makes me feel very doomy and gloomy and uncomfortable, and SAMe -- which I haven't taken for months, until I took 2 earlier this afternoon -- always in the past has made me feel better, as long as I don't take too much. Back in 2000, 1600 mgs a day brought me back from feeling like death, to a renewed sense of hope and energy.
As you said, niacin (B3) is considered a methyl sponge. The way it works is mainly by using up SAMe. You might need a higher dose of TMG and/or SAMe now that you're supplementing with B3. I found this the other day from Dr. Ben
One has to keep in mind that methylation is dynamic and one can shift quickly from under and overmethylated – in a matter of an hr it is possible – or less – especially if utilizing potent nutrients such as methylfolate or methylcobalamin.

We have to keep in mind that there may be other mutations on board – such as COMT. Niacin speeds up COMT which is one reason why it also may be useful. If one speeds up COMT, then things like dopamine and epinephrine get broken down faster. Niacin also is a ‘sponge’ for methyl groups, namely SAMe, because SAMe is required to metabolize niacin.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
I don't know about autistic children but a TMG intake of 2x 1000 mg is nothing to sneeze at ... that will make a fair amount for norepinephrine relative to dopamine. The level of inflammation that it in itself would generate in someone like me with an autoimmune disease would not be a happy thought. On the other hand it may be needed for those with the homozygote SNPs on the CBS gene who otherwise are not burdened by high inflammation.
How does TMG cause/increase inflammation?
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
Stimualation of bhmt disproportionally raises ne relative to da.
No one knows exactly why but the metabolites for ne catabolism shoot up relative to those for da. The hypothesis is da is over converted to ne. This would explain the cautions about taking tmg at night or some people's testimonials about insomnia and excitability if they take larger doses.
Now why inflammation? The answer is again ne. Excessive ne signaling ramps the immune system to be proinflammatory in a big way.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Stimualation of bhmt disproportionally raises ne relative to da.
No one knows exactly why but the metabolites for ne catabolism shoot up relative to those for da. The hypothesis is da is over converted to ne.
Now why inflammation? The answer is again ne. Excessive ne signaling ramps the immune system to be proinflammatory in a big way.
I wasn't sure if the inflammation was from the norepinephrine or increasing methylation because the information about NE is confusing. It seems it's both proinflammatory and antiinflammatory.
This would explain the cautions about taking tmg at night or some people's testimonials about insomnia and excitability if they take larger doses.
Couldn't that also be from increasing methylation?
 

PennyIA

Senior Member
Messages
728
Location
Iowa
I will definitely look into L 5 MTHF, do you think that will help with my sleep?
You might find by add L5MTHF and P5P that you could reduce the methylB12 (they all work together). They will give you more energy in all - but maybe then you can lower the methyl B12 enough to sleep and still have the lift you need during the day.
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
You might find by add L5MTHF and P5P that you could reduce the methylB12 (they all work together). They will give you more energy in all - but maybe then you can lower the methyl B12 enough to sleep and still have the lift you need during the day.
I'm not sure if you've read all the way through this thread, but Joe Davison said he's only taking 1000 mcg methylcobalamin now and he's taking 400 mcg 5MTHF so that's more than enough methylfolate. And he has B12 deficiency symptoms so lowering the methylcobalamin might not be a good idea. Some P5P might be good, but too much will increase methylation more than some people want to.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
Would those of you who understand what can go wrong when we increase methylation please have a look at my last post on the thread "Quick question regarding MB12 and Folapro". I am at a bit of a loss as to what to do next and really want to get some proper sleep again!

Thanks Pam
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Would those of you who understand what can go wrong when we increase methylation please have a look at my last post on the thread "Quick question regarding MB12 and Folapro". I am at a bit of a loss as to what to do next and really want to get some proper sleep again!

Thanks Pam
Some people need a lower dose than others. I don't know what else to say. Freddd and Rich have differing opinions about the proper dosages. I generally recommend lowering your dose if you run into problems. Especially if potassium doesn't alleviate your symptoms. If you're following Freddd's protocol then you might want to ask him or someone else following his protocol about dosages because I would probably give you a different answer.

And I'll also repeat what I said earlier in your "Quick question regarding MB12 and Folapro" thread: Many times people get extra "energy" when starting a methylation protocol and most likely increase their level of activities. That's fine if your body can handle extra activities, but if not your body will let you know that you're doing to much. I have a lot adrenal problems that get worse from too much activities and methylation itself seems to increase my adrenal symptoms as well. Getting enough sleep also makes a big difference with my adrenal symptoms. And limiting activities and sources of stress during the day also help a lot. Eating healthy meals at regular intervals are important too.

As far as what could go wrong during methylation, there's a lot of things. I found some quotes from Rich on the different processes occurring during methylation:
One physician I know gives all his patients the methylation treatment, and then watches the response. If they experience some symptoms that appear to be caused by detox, but they are able to tolerate them, he continues with this treatment. If they have intolerable symptoms that appear to be related to mobilization of toxins, then he stops the methylation treatment and works on improving the status of the gut. When that is working better, he moves on to supporting the liver. His thinking is that the toxins that were being mobilized were being reabsorbed by the gut and sent back to the liver. In order to properly process and excrete the toxins, the gut and liver must both be functioning well enough to handle them.

My guess is that when there is an inflammation response to methylation cycle treatment, there is an infection. If the inflammation continues without resolution, then my guess is that the immune system has been reactivated, but is not capable of defeating an existing infection. In such cases, I think that treating to support the immune system would be one approach. Another would be to test to determine what pathogen is causing the infection, and then treating it with an antibiotic, antiviral or antifungal, depending on the pathogen.

I think it's important to note that a healthy person would not have any reaction to the supplements used in the methylation protocols, because their methylation cycle, detox system and immune system would already be functioning normally. So the fact that there is a response, even though it may seem to be deleterious, means that the methylation cycle was partially blocked and that these supplements were needed. However, the way one should proceed from that point on probably depends on the type of response that the individual person has.

So far, I'm pretty sure that if the following are present, they will need specific treatment, in addition to treating the methylation cycle partial block: biotoxin (including mold) illness, Lyme disease and its coinfections, well-entrenched viral infections, and high body burdens of toxic heavy metals, such as mercury. There may be others of which I'm not aware, but there is some experience with these, at least, which people have reported

I believe that the partial methylation cycle block is the pivotal abnormality in the pathogenesis and pathophysiology. With respect to the root cause or causes (etiology) of ME/CFS, I have suggested that this disorder arises from a combination of a genetic predisposition and some combination of a variety of stressors, which can be physical. chemical, biological, or psychological/emotional. I've suggested that this combination leads to glutathione depletion, which leaves B12 unprotected, which causes a decreased production of methylacobalamin, which inhibits methionine synthase, which forms a vicious circle with glutathione depletion, making ME/CFS a chronic condition. The retroviruses would fit within the biological stressors in my hypothesis, and certainly could be a root cause. If effective treatment of the retroviruses ends up bringing about recovery from ME/CFS, that will be very convincing as to its role as an etiologic agent. I hope that turns out to be the case for at least some of the PWMEs/PWCs. It may not be true for all of them, though, because this population seems to be very heterogeneous.

The reason I have included the variety of stressors as etiologic agents is that I have studied the published "risk factor" studies, and have also queried quite a few PWMEs/PWCs as to the events that preceded their onset, and I've found a variety of precursors. The common factor seems to be that they are all things that would be dealt with by the body's nonspecific stress response systems, and these in turn are known to place demands on glutathione.

In addition to this, there are now many PWMEs/PWCs who have taken the Health Diagnostics methylation pathways panel, and nearly all of them show evidence of a partial methylation cycle block or glutathione depletion, and usually both.

And when treatment was given in our clinical study that is directed toward lifting the partial methylation cycle block, we observed by testing that this does in fact occur, and that glutathione also comes up automatically. This was accompanied by improvement in symptoms in at least two-thirds of those who were treated.

Putting all of this together, I think the GD-MCB hypothesis is consistent with the observations and with known biochemistry and physiology. That doesn't mean that I believe that it is scientifically proven, which is a very high standard to meet, and requires considerable investment in time, money and effort, but that it is a valid working hypothesis. I'm hoping to interest researchers and fundors in this model so that it can be more thoroughly tested.

The methylation cycle is at the beginning of the sulfur metabolism. It is fed by methionine, which comes in as part of protein in the diet. Homocysteine is produced from methionine (via SAMe and SAH) in the methylation cycle, and then methionine synthase "decides" how much should be converted back to methionine, to stay in the methylation cycle. In the liver and kidneys, the BHMT reaction also converts some homocysteine back to methionine. The rest of the homocysteine enters the transsulfuration pathway, which is downstream.

The way that methionine synthase does its "deciding" is that the cobalt ion in the cobalamin that is its cofactor gets oxidized at a rate that depends on the state of oxidative stress in the cells. The more oxidizing this state is, the more often the cobalt ion gets oxidized, and that temporarily shuts down the methionine synthase reaction and diverts the homocysteine flow into the transsulfuration pathway, which helps to make more glutathione, which counters the oxidative stress. Unfortunately, in ME/CFS this delicate mechanism gets overwhelmed, and the oxidative stress becomes more severe, so that glutathione doesn't recover and get control of it. The result is that methionine synthase becomes partially blocked, and the sulfur metabolites drain down the transsulfuration pathway, into sulfoxidation, and get excreted too much as taurine and sulfate, which depletes methionine. The whole sulfur metabolism becomes dysfunctional, and that takes down the cell-mediated immune response as well as the detoxication system. As well, everything that depends on methylation reactions is affected, including gene expression, synthesis of several needed substances, and the neurotransmitter metabolism. Also, this drains the folates from the cells via the methyl trap mechanism, and that affects things that depend on folate, such as synthesis of new RNA and DNA. The latter is what cause the red blood cells to be too big and too few in number.

The methylation cycle is so fundamental to so many parts of the body's biochemistry that when it becomes dysfunctional, it causes a host of problems, and this is why people experience so many symptoms, involving so many body systems and organs, in this disorder.
 

bertiedog

Senior Member
Messages
1,738
Location
South East England, UK
Thanks for the explanations, one thing comes to mind for me, I was taking around 1000 mcg betaine hcl in 3 divided doses yesterday because I have so little stomach acid and I remember in the past I did used to take TMG but got very bad hyperstimulation from TMG and had to stop it. I bet that is what has caused my problems, today without realising it I took about 300 mg less so that might be why I didn't feel that way plus I took 400 mcg less of methylfolate.

I really appreciate all the help we get here.

Pam
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
Thanks for the explanations, one thing comes to mind for me, I was taking around 1000 mcg betaine hcl in 3 divided doses yesterday because I have so little stomach acid and I remember in the past I did used to take TMG but got very bad hyperstimulation from TMG and had to stop it. I bet that is what has caused my problems, today without realising it I took about 300 mg less so that might be why I didn't feel that way plus I took 400 mcg less of methylfolate.

I really appreciate all the help we get here.

Pam
With TMG or Betaine HCL it could cause the hyperstimulation either by increasing your norepinephrine as dbkita said or by increasing methylation or some combination of the two. If you're already taking a relatively high dose of methylfolate, methylcobalamin, and P5P then any additional methyl donor will magnify the effects.

I'm actually might be having a similar dilemma with TMG and Betaine hcl. My digestive enzyme has betaine hcl and I also have a b complex with a little bit of TMG. I'm not sure if they're causing problems or not since I'm taking a relatively low dose. I haven't really decided what to do yet.

What type of potassium are you taking? Someone with low stomach acid said that potassium gluconate didn't work for them, but potassium chloride did. Despite what some people think, I don't believe all methylation problems are related to low potassium, but it would be a good idea to rule it out.