methylcobalamin vs hydroxocobalamin

[Crux]

Hi Calathea;
Yes, dosage is critical, but brand is too. Finding an effective brand has been surprisingly difficult for me. I've tried so many, to list them would wear me out, atm.

Swanson's has good prices, I don't know what they charge for shipping to UK, but buying in quantity could be economical. Swanson's price for Enzymatic Therapy is good, but each sublingual is only 1mg. But it may be that you will only need a smaller dosage.

iherb has good prices, and ships free in US if the amount is over $ 40.00 US. ( they charge more for E.T., but shipping cost may need to be accounted.)

As for other brands, I'm unsure. People have been reporting on the jarrows, did it change? thread.

 

[Calathea]

I meant Swanson as a brand, not as a shop. They already sell directly in the UK: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Swanson-Ult...F8&qid=1366735626&sr=8-1&keywords=swanson+b12 The problem with ordering fron iherb and the like is that if I spend more than £15, I am liable to get hit with an £11 customs charge. And that's on top of international shipping. So it's really not worth it. Going back to UK prices, ET charge slightly more for thirty 1mg tablets than Swanson do for sixty 5mg tablets. I can't afford that sort of thing! What about Solgar or Bluebonnet? They're fairly affordable. Although if the Swanson has a good reputation, and people on the Neurotalk forum seem happy with it, I'll probably try that first, as the price is excellent.

 

[adreno]

Solgar seems fine to me, but I haven't tried the ET. I have Bluebonnet on the way, we shall see whether it's better or worse.

 

[Calathea]

Damn, I just checked the Solgar and Bluebonnet on Amazon and there were high hidden postage costs. Swanson remains the cheapest, followed by Jarrow I think.

 

[Crux]

Please let us know what you think of the Swanson's brand. It looks well recommended....Hope it's Great!

 

[Lotus97]

Parroting other people's anecdotals is not going to get us anywhere. You seem to give an awful lot of advice based on others people's experiences and opinions, like which brand of B12 is best, how to maximize absorbtion etc. Maybe you should start your posts with "Freddd's opinion is..", or "Freddd recommends..". At least then we know the real source.

Some people would be surprised to hear me accused of repeating Freddd's advice I'm more than willing to hear alternate theories. Are you saying that you've noticed no difference between holding it between your lip/gum and under tongue? I've heard other people saying that it works better between the lip and gum. In this thread just a day or two ago Plum said it helped her. And I remember dbkita mentioning that that's how he was doing it too. Although I should also note that he reported tooth sensitivity from holding the Source Naturals' adenosylcobalamin between his upper lip and gum. I mentioned in my last post about the study using hydroxocobalamin that was most likely used under the tongue and dissolves fast yet they still experienced good results. So that could serve as a counterexample about how necessary different methods of absorption are. Of course, maybe the reason the study was successful was because not everyone needs a high amount of B12 and the study would have been more successful if they tried the lip and gum method. I learn many new things every day so of course I might be wrong.

As for which brands are best, I have heard accounts from many other people although I admit that it is anecdotal. Still, when the Jarrow brand changed in quality there was a thread created about it.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/jarrow-did-it-change.18154/
Many people complained about the quality changing. I've also heard that Solgar and AOR are good, but I'm not sure if people have said it's better than Enzymatic. In some of my recent posts I have mentioned Solgar and AOR, but I do say that Enzymatic is better until someone says otherwise. You and anyone else can read through that entire thread. I haven't read through every single thread in Phoenix Rising, but you say that you haven't tried Enzymatic Therapy yet.

 

[Lotus97]

Crux
I've heard several people here say that they have a B12 deficiency, but not CFS. Do you consider yourself one of those people?

 

[adreno]

Lotus97, I have "heard" a lot of things on these forums as well. Hearsay doesn't make truth. It seems you are under the impression that you’re revealing something here, but I doubt there are any regulars who don't know the "information" you are continually repeating. We are all well aware what Freddd recommends. In fact, it's in a sticky at the top of this forum. My advice would be to stick to telling your personal experiences, rather than repeating other's. Especially when they are presented as facts, without crediting the source.

 

[Lotus97]

Lotus97, I have "heard" a lot of things on these forums as well. Hearsay doesn't make truth. It seems you are under the impression that you’re revealing something here, but I doubt there are any regulars who don't know the "information" you are continually repeating. We are all well aware what Freddd recommends. In fact, it's in a sticky at the top of this forum. My advice would be to stick to telling your personal experiences, rather than repeating other's. Especially when they are presented as facts, without crediting the source.

In my previous post I did cite additional sources besides Freddd for both how B12 is absorbed and which brands of methylcobalamin are good brands. I don't know why you continue to insist that I'm merely repeating Freddd's advice when I explained myself quite well in the last post. It's true that the information is anecdotal, but I don't know what alternative there is. If I only shared my experience then that would be less accurate than if I based my opinion on the experiences of multiple people.

I question why you tagged me rather than quoting my previous post which indicated the sources I based my opinion on. I even cited a counterexample of why Freddd's theories might not be accurate. I also said specifically that I was interested in alternative theories and that I learn new things every day and might be wrong about some things. I'll go a step further in this post and say I'm almost sure I'm wrong about some things.

I'm also surprised that you're singling me out when I've been quite critical of some of the things Freddd has said to the point where I've been attacked by several people for doing so. I've seen very few other people express even the slightest bit of skepticism towards what Freddd says.

There was a post by someone just a few days ago from someone who bought Jarrow's methylcobalamin because it was in Freddd's protocol which is sticky at the top of the forum. There seems to be no doubt that the quality of Jarrow has lowered and yet this person bought it nonetheless. I know of someone else who also bought Jarrow a month or two ago because they thought it was a "good brand". As far as how B12 is best absorbed, I agree that we don't have enough information to know whether putting it between the upper lip and gum is actually better, but I was still basing it on more than just what Freddd recommends. In regard to the brands of methylcobalamin, there does seem to quite a bit of information about that. There are so many threads in this forum. Not everyone is going to read the thread about Jarrow changing. I am dubious of Freddd's claim that Enzymatic is 30-100 times better than some brands. He seems to have certain genetic issues that are atypical of this community. But based on that thread I linked to above there seems to be little doubt that certain brands of methylcobalamin are better than others. It sounds like Bluebonnet might also be a good brand based on that thread. I have no doubt that there could be other brands that are good, but if people have already tested out certain brands I don't see why anyone should roll the dice and possibly waste their money on an untested brand unless maybe it's significantly cheaper.

 

[Lotus97]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Rich recommends starting with hydroxocobalamin and only switching to methylcobalamin if a person doesn't experience any improvement. He seems to be saying that there are two groups of people. One group does well with hydroxocobalamin and one group that needs methylcobalamin. I would actually separate this into 3 groups. I'm sure Rich was aware of the distinction I'm making, but I assume he wanted to keep things simple and didn't think it was necessary to go any further.

Among the people for whom hydroxocobalamin does work, there are some people that don't do well if they increase methylation too much. This might be due to COMT/VDR Taq polymorphisms which would make a person prone to overmethylation, but there could be other factors. Some people might not necessarily be an overmethylator, but increasing methylation too much could cause excessive inflammation or toxins such as certain metals to be released at too rapid a rate. Since hydroxocobalamin uses up methyl groups to a certain extent, it would allow a person to get their B12 and folate levels up without increasing methylation too much. It's important to note that hydroxocobalamin won't necessarily prevent a person from overmethylation if they take too much methylfolate and/or additional methyl donors.

There would also be a second set of people who do well with hydroxocobalamin. They wouldn't have problems increasing methylation so they would do just as well if not better on methylcobalamin. Even if they didn't do any better on methylcobalamin, it would still be more cost effective to switch to methylcobalamin. They would need to take adenosylcobalamin which would be an additional expense, but it's relatively cheap compared to hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin. Since most people can convert hydroxocobalamin into adenosylcobalamin, it's unclear whether someone taking 2000 mcg hydroxocobalamin would benefit from supplementing with adenosylcobalamin. My guess is that some people might benefit, but for others it would be unnecessary.

 

[Crux]

Crux
I've heard several people here say that they have a B12 deficiency, but not CFS. Do you consider yourself one of those people?

Hi Lotus,

Unfortunately, I am not one of the people with B12 deficiency, but not CFS.

In the past, though, I was, at times. There were even times when I was hypomanic, ( not good either). With B12 deficiency, There isn't always CFS. I don't know why, but the neurological symptoms vary amoung individuals.

In my case, B12 deficiency has been largely a cause of CFS. ( With B12 def., there is a susceptibility to infections, partly caused by difficulty in forming white blood cells.)

Also, I have low pituitary/adrenal/ thyroid/gonadal function, another potential factor for CFS.

But, I still have hope, I'm improving... alot.
I also hope you can find recovery. I understand the difficulty...

 

[Lotus97]

Rich also said that B12 needs to be taken sublingually and also that blood tests aren't accurate people with CFS

=============================​

(From 2 different posts so there might be some repetition)​

High serum B12 levels can be caused by a functional B12 deficiency. Based on testing in a lot of people, it looks as though this is pretty generally found in ME/CFS. It is consistent with the Glutathione Depletion-Methylation Cycle Block model for ME/CFS. What happens with a functional block is that the cells are not able to use B12 properly, so they export it back to the blood bound to haptocorrin. The liver cells are the only ones that can import this, and the residence time in the blood is about a week. So when a serum B12 measurement is made, it is dominated by this fraction of B12, which is not available to cells of the body other than the liver cells. It would be better to do a urine methylmalonate test to see if there is a functional (rather than an absolute) B12 deficiency. The serum B12 test is useful for detecting an absolute B12 deficiency (as can be caused by pernicious anemia or a transcobalamin deficiency or gut surgery or celiac or Crohn's disease), but it is not useful for detecting a functional B12 deficiency, which is what is found in ME/CFS.

A functional B12 deficiency means that even though you have enough B12 in your body, your cells are not able to use it properly. In ME/CFS, this is caused by depletion of glutathione. When glutathione goes too low, the affinity of the CblC complementation group (part of the intracellular processing pathway for B12) for B12 goes way down, based on research published last year from Korea. Thus, even though there is enough B12 present for normal operation, this group is not able to bind strongly enough to B12 to keep the rate of B12 processing high enough to meet the demands of the cells for methyl B12 and adenosyl B12, which are normally produced in the cells themselves from whatever form of B12 comes in from the diet and supplements.

This is confusing to the docs, who have not been trained to understand it. They know about absolute B12 deficiency, but not about functional B12 deficiency. When they see high serum B12, they tell people to stop taking it. Unfortunately, this is not the right advice. It's necessary to take relatively large dosages of B12 (such as 2 milligrams per day or so), either sublingually or by injection to get enough into the blood, together with oral methylfolate at about RDA levels (a few hundred micrograms per day). This is what is in the simplified methylation protocol, together with some other supplements to cover possible deficiencies of essential nutrients. Over a period of a few months, this usually overcomes the vicious circle involving glutathione depletion, functional B12 deficiency, methylation cycle partial block, and loss of folates from the cells.

It is only since the work in Korea that we have an explanation for the observation of Lapp and Cheney in the late 80s and into the 90s that it was necessary to inject at least 2,000 or 2,500 micrograms of B12 per injection to have a therapeutic benefit from it in ME/CFS. It now makes sense. We have to overcome the low affinity due to glutathione depletion, and it takes a big dosage to do that. Eventually, glutathione comes back up, and the B12 demand becomes more normal.

It's good to know that B12 has not been found to be toxic, even at very high concentrations in the blood, so high serum B12 is not something to worry about. It is an indicator of functional B12 deficiency. Most of the B12 in the blood serum has actually been rejected from the cells because it couldn't be used. It is bound to haptocorrin, and the only cells that can pick it up are liver cells. It stays in the blood for about a week, which is why the levels can get so high if the cells are rejecting it. Eventually the liver picks it up and puts most of it out in the bile, which goes to the gut. It then has a chance to be bound to intrinsic factor and be reabsorbed. But if there is more than can be absorbed, the rest goes out in the stools.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Lotus97]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Rich recommends starting with hydroxocobalamin and only switching to methylcobalamin if a person doesn't experience any improvement. He seems to be saying that there are two groups of people. One group does well with hydroxocobalamin and one group that needs methylcobalamin. I would actually separate this into 3 groups. I'm sure Rich was aware of the distinction I'm making, but I assume he wanted to keep things simple and didn't think it was necessary to go any further.

Among the people for whom hydroxocobalamin does work, there are some people that don't do well if they increase methylation too much. This might be due to COMT/VDR Taq polymorphisms which would make a person prone to overmethylation, but there could be other factors. Some people might not necessarily be an overmethylator, but increasing methylation too much could cause excessive inflammation or toxins such as certain metals to be released at too rapid a rate. Since hydroxocobalamin uses up methyl groups to a certain extent, it would allow a person to get their B12 and folate levels up without increasing methylation too much. It's important to note that hydroxocobalamin won't necessarily prevent a person from overmethylation if they take too much methylfolate and/or additional methyl donors.

There would also be a second set of people who do well with hydroxocobalamin. They wouldn't have problems increasing methylation so they would do just as well if not better on methylcobalamin. Even if they didn't do any better on methylcobalamin, it would still be more cost effective to switch to methylcobalamin. They would need to take adenosylcobalamin which would be an additional expense, but it's relatively cheap compared to hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin. Since most people can convert hydroxocobalamin into adenosylcobalamin, it's unclear whether someone taking 2000 mcg hydroxocobalamin would benefit from supplementing with adenosylcobalamin. My guess is that some people might benefit, but for others it would be unnecessary.

It seems Yasko was thinking the same thing (more or less). Most importantly (as she says in the paragraph below the chart) is that you should listen to what your body is telling you. SNP results and what Rich and Freddd say can be guidelines, but a person still needs to use their own judgement to determine what dose is right for them.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/132017201/Dr-Amy-s-Simplified-Road-Map-to-Health

 

[musicchick581]

@Freddd ...if hydroxocobalmin is not absorbed well, then what are those of us who don't tolerate methylcobalmin supposed to take? I have 400 mcg methylfolate in my multivitamin and seem ok on that so far but adding more and adding methylcobalmin is not a good move. Hydroxocobalmin was the one recommended to me on every site I've seen.

 

[Valentijn]

@Freddd ...if hydroxocobalmin is not absorbed well, then what are those of us who don't tolerate methylcobalmin supposed to take? I have 400 mcg methylfolate in my multivitamin and seem ok on that so far but adding more and adding methylcobalmin is not a good move. Hydroxocobalmin was the one recommended to me on every site I've seen.

It shouldn't have a problem being absorbed. It's smaller than methyl-B12, so even has a better chance of sublingual absorption. At any rate, I get noticeable effects from it, which would not be happening if it wasn't getting absorbed.

 

[musicchick581]

ok,great! Maybe I will add it in. I have no idea how much though.

 

[xks201]

I get no effects from hydroxocobalamin. Need mb12 to relieve all signs of b12 deficiency. Fredd was right in the case of some people like myself. I dont understand why some of you demand more evidence when clearly fred and some others like myself do not respond to hydroxocobalamin.
Science has not determined the exact cause for certain effects but that does not mean the effects in some people are not real. Bioloigical individuality is real. Do you need proof of that concept too?

 

[musicchick581]

Um...it wasn't challenging him, it was asking a question....

 

[Indie]

I've been trying for a couple of years to figure out why I have a problem with hydroxyb12. Whenever I try hydroxyb12 (perque), I get inflammation in my sinuses. But I don't think it's from getting methylation going again because when I try methyl b12 (ET or Bluebonnet), I don't get this inflammation. I have only positive effects from the methyl b12. And I've heard of people having histamine problems with hydroxyb12, but this is not my typical histamine symptom. Why would hydroxyb12 cause inflammation and methyl b12 not cause inflammation? It makes no sense to me. Can inflammation be from something other than detox or pathogens?



I'm also taking douglas labs b complex with metafolin, but I'm not taking adb12 or l-carnitine fumarate. I have just ordered the adb12. I'm COMT -/- and VDR +/- and so should be taking mostly hydroxyb12 with some methylb12.

 

[HistaSista]

At the beginning of this thread there were differences of opinion about Fredd's theory about Hydoxocobalamin and methyl and adenosylcobalamin. My brain is not in the best condition right now, but I would like to support his opinion about Hydrox being slow to possibly totally inefective (on its own anyway) in starting methylation. I have been trying find the correct combination for years. Methly and adenosyl on their own didn't do it, or perhaps I wasn't taking enough, so I started thinking that injections would be better. It took weeks to get on top of my symtoms which included weak arms and legs, palpitations, sore mouth and tongue etc. When I finally reached Nirvana, I decided to keep going with a daily injection of hydrox and started cutting back on my transdermal adenosyl/methyl B12. Result is that my legs are feeling weak again so I am going back to more of the adenosyl/methyl mix and fewer injections. Just hope I can finally get it right.