Victronix
Senior Member
- Messages
- 418
- Location
- California
Q: Should I presume that vitamin C affects folinic acid the way it affects methylfolate in the gut? I guess unless someone knows otherwise I should separate them out from each other in time.
Welcome to Phoenix Rising!
Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.
I think the Quatrefolic methylfolate might be more potent because I tried Thorne's b complex with methylfolate more recently and it didn't seem to have the same effects.
Another variable is that I noticed that the start-up effects really changed over time even within the same type of methylfolate -- some of the effects that I had at the start, like temperature dysregulation and exhaustion, went away almost totally over time, even as other symptoms remained or got worse.
I probably should have posted the quote. What I meant is that he said folinic acid would lower glutamate because it's polyglutamated (or at least he thought it was at one time). I didn't want to post it here because like I said I wasn't sure if it was accurate since he only mentioned it once in 2010 (even though he talked about glutamate induced excitotoxicity many times since then). This is what he said:Folinic acid is not polyglutamated. It is monoglutamated like many folates. He may have crossed that up with the dietary natural folates I described above. I see no reason directly that folinic acid would raise glutamate. That form is stable. It does not get broken down to cross membranes. The only possible indirect link is that really high TH4 levels can lead to over-processing of histidine into a glutamate derivative (this is the same reason that histamine levels are low in high methylation states). But how much that actually impacts excitotoxicity is not clear to me.
Also I am sorry but that idea that the amount of glutamate in supplemental folates (remember they all get reduced to monoglutamate form in the intestinal lumen) is a significant impact on someone is unlikely to say the least. The reason is simple. The amounts. If you take 800 mcg of folic acid or folinic acid, you get about 1/3 of that as glutamic acid. You get a ton more glutamate in simple protein foods. Even if you take 3200 mcg of folic or folinic acid you get like 1 gram. 1/4 lb of ground hamburger has 3.3 grams or so.
I asked that earlier and I don't think anyone knew the answer. Since methylfolate is also in Rich's protocol, it's hard to what it's effect is. Although Rich thought folinic acid's ability to create nucleotides which are important for making new DNA and RNA for new cells, and also for making ATP was significant, it might be hard to quantify its effect if you're taking other supplements.Q: Should I presume that vitamin C affects folinic acid the way it affects methylfolate in the gut? I guess unless someone knows otherwise I should separate them out from each other in time.
Thanks for clarifying this. Even though I still don't understand it, I at least have a starting point (and I don't want to start with a faulty premise). So plant folate isn't folinic acid, but is meat methylfolate? And just for the record, I studied theater, English, art, and photography in college so science isn't exactly my cup of tea...anyway. So what is going on with Freddd and veggies then since they're not folinic acid?Just to clarify, in that thread I was actually trying to make it clear that most dietary folates are NOT folinic acid.
I guess I did not make that clear enough.
Here is what I posted in the thread you linked:
"Folinic acid is a 5-formyl derivative of THF. The folates in vegetables are not folinic or folic acid (a fully oxidized synthetic folate, i.e. pteroylmonoglutamic acid). This is a notorious misconception in the research community. The folates in food are metabolites of THF packed within polyglutamates. In the intestinal lumen these polyglutmate dietary forms are broken down into monoglutamate variants which can then be converted to DHF and then THF by their respective enzymes. The DHFR enzyme is not present in humans for the synthetic folic acid it is present for processing dietary folates. Folinic acid is readily converted to 5,10 methylene THF without use of DHFR. That being said dietary folates parallel more with folic acid than with folinic acid with one crucial difference ... they can be processed in the intestinal lumen and the liver. Folic acid (I am pretty sure) being fully oxidized must be converted in the liver.
I don't think this changes the fact that high dietary folates could be an issue for some people who can not make use of them, have intestinal wall damage, or critical needs for 5mthf but let's be honest while maybe garden feasts are not a good idea, it is not wise probably to eschew vegetables entirely as a general rule."
Technically that was a little strong in the sense that animal and plant cells will have folinic acid in them. Just like TH4, L5mthf (say in liver), or 5,10 methylene THF, etc. But the dominant form that is ingested as dietary folates is the natural, non-oxidized folate (folic acid is the oxidized, synthetic version that can only be processed in the liver). Again this is cleaved of most glutamates in the intestine and further reduced to DHF in the intestines or liver. From there DHFR takes it to THF.
Thanks for clarifying this. Even though I still don't understand it, I at least have a starting point (and I don't want to start with a faulty premise). So plant folate isn't folinic acid, but is meat methylfolate? And just for the record, I studied theater, English, art, and photography in college so science isn't exactly my cup of tea...anyway. So what is going on with Freddd and veggies then since they're not folinic acid?
Right, but they do compete for absorption which is different than blocking. I don't think it's really an issue unless you need a massive amount of methylfolate. When I was referring to folic acid or folinic acid blocking methylfolate though, I just meant for the people who can't convert it. Since you said you can't convert folic acid, I was wondering if you had taken methylfolate at the same time since when I took folic acid and methylfolate at the same time I felt the effects of the methylfolate even though I was taking 15 times as much folic acid as methylfolate.I was taking -- from time to time -- off and on for years -- folic acid, when I thought there was only 'one' folic acid.
It came as part of a sublingual b12/folic acid combo. Did seem to help, but I think it was most definitely the ad-b12 in it, and not the folic acid. Country Life brand...think it was 400mcgs folic and 500 mcgs ad-b12.
p.s. I personally don't think folinic blocks methylfolate. Not sure, but believe it slowly converts to methylfolate if you don't have various genetic issues others have mentioned.
I've gone from 1600+ folic acid last year down to around 200 mcg now. My health is too poor to play around with methylfolate right now. Taking it before contributed to a major relapse. Hopefully my body is processing the folate from my food. I'm not taking much folinic acid or B12 either right now. Even if methylation doesn't make me wired to the point where it's uncomfortable, I still end up spending all day at the computer which does make my other symptoms worse.I've found that my response to a tiny dose of folinic is nearly identical to the response to methylfolate (this is after having stopped any folic acid in my supplements at all now for at least 2 weeks, and in my diet for months, having gone gluten-free and eating mostly at home) and the symptoms mimic folate deficiency. Having had enriched wheat products for decades, it's possible that getting folic acid out of the liver could take many weeks or months (I know when my thyroid when hyper, it took about 6 months to 'use up' all the excess thyroixine that can be stored all over the body). But so far I have no real info to verify any of that. Alternately, it's possible there is no role of folic and it's just how I respond to folinic or methylfolate regardless of folic.
I've never had any bad response to vegetables that I'm aware of.
I'm not sure if I forgot to mention it, but most days I was taking the Thorne with vitamin C and/or potassium so that could explain it. I hope someone will try out Quatrefolic methylfolate because I'm curious if it really is that much more potent or if I'm just sensitive. I do seem to react to too much B12 also so it's probably a combination of both. Swanson's is having a buy one get one free offer on Quatrefolic if anyone's interested (both 400 and 800 mcg)I think the Quatrefolic methylfolate might be more potent because I tried Thorne's b complex with methylfolate more recently and it didn't seem to have the same effects.
Another variable is that I noticed that the start-up effects really changed over time even within the same type of methylfolate -- some of the effects that I had at the start, like temperature dysregulation and exhaustion, went away almost totally over time, even as other symptoms remained or got worse.
Hi Lotus,
So what is going on with Freddd and veggies then since they're not folinic acid?
I wish I knew. You see I like veggies and eat lots of them. They don't hit nearly as hard as folinic acid but they can make a very rapid noticeable difference.
While glutamate is certainly related to excitotoxicity I am not sure about the connection with folinic acid. Dietary folates are generally polyglutamates and turned into monoglutamate form in the interstinal lumen or the liver. I do not know if there is a capability to turn them into monoglutamate form inside of cells. So not sure what Rich meant back in his 2010 post.I probably should have posted the quote. What I meant is that he said folinic acid would lower glutamate because it's polyglutamated (or at least he thought it was at one time). I didn't want to post it here because like I said I wasn't sure if it was accurate since he only mentioned it once in 2010 (even though he talked about glutamate induced excitotoxicity many times since then). This is what he said:
"Another factor is that folinic acid is polyglutamated when it is inside the cells, and this can help to lower the amount of free glutamate, which is an excitotoxin."
Thanks for clarifying this. Even though I still don't understand it, I at least have a starting point (and I don't want to start with a faulty premise). So plant folate isn't folinic acid, but is meat methylfolate? And just for the record, I studied theater, English, art, and photography in college so science isn't exactly my cup of tea...anyway. So what is going on with Freddd and veggies then since they're not folinic acid?
Meat will have l5mthf, folinic acid and THF along with other forms. Plant sources may have more slant towards the simpler folates that need to be reduced once or twice to get into the folate cycle to begin with. Most meat is muscle meat. Liver and organ meats, etc. will have more l5mthf.Hi Lotus,
So what is going on with Freddd and veggies then since they're not folinic acid?
I wish I knew. You see I like veggies and eat lots of them. They don't hit nearly as hard as folinic acid but they can make a very rapid noticeable difference.
One short period in my life, when I was on the ski patrol at Sugarloaf, I ate about 1.5 pounds of meat in 5000 calories daily while skiing 25,000-40,000 feet of vertical a day in cold or very cold weather and relatively few veggies, I didn't have angular cheilitis. I healed from 3 months of resistant strep and pneumonia. It was the healthiest time of my life until recently.
I've gone from 1600+ folic acid last year down to around 200 mcg now. My health is too poor to play around with methylfolate right now. Taking it before contributed to a major relapse. Hopefully my body is processing the folate from my food. I'm not taking much folinic acid or B12 either right now. Even if methylation doesn't make me wired to the point where it's uncomfortable, I still end up spending all day at the computer which does make my other symptoms worse.
I'm not sure if I forgot to mention it, but most days I was taking the Thorne with vitamin C and/or potassium so that could explain it. I hope someone will try out Quatrefolic methylfolate because I'm curious if it really is that much more potent or if I'm just sensitive. I do seem to react to too much B12 also so it's probably a combination of both. Swanson's is having a buy one get one free offer on Quatrefolic if anyone's interested (both 400 and 800 mcg)
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-folate-5-methyltetrahydrofolic-acid-400-mcg-30-veg-caps
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-ultra-folate-5-methyltetrahydrofolic-acid-800-mcg-30-veg-caps
Hi Lotus,
One short period in my life, when I was on the ski patrol at Sugarloaf, I ate about 1.5 pounds of meat in 5000 calories daily while skiing 25,000-40,000 feet of vertical a day in cold or very cold weather and relatively few veggies, I didn't have angular cheilitis. I healed from 3 months of resistant strep and pneumonia. It was the healthiest time of my life until recently.
Three years ago, when I started supplementing with MK-4 I started eating more meat, because of the necessity to take it with fat. I do not eat beef, so most of the meat was lamb, duck, pork and guinea fowl (for taurine) and a lot of clarified butter and eggs.
Last year I was much better and could reduce my supplementation. From last year I increased dramatically the portions of meat/fish compared to the veggies. I don't know why, maybe because by instinct I wanted more meat? Maybe because here this meat is plentiful and very good? Also I started cooking everything in stews to take a maximum of nutrients with a minimum of work in the kitchen.
Anyway, at this point I'm wondering if my best bet is to forgo supplemental folate and b vitamins (other than mb12, which does seem to help a bit) and instead do as Asklipia, and stick to what my body can absorb/process via a solid home-prepared diet.
Its best to take B-12 with the other Bs to balance them. Fredd found a B-multi that has no folic, folinic or methylfolate -- http://www.naturemade.com/products/b-complex/b-complex-with-c and its very cheap. I found that if I didn't do a B-multi I was getting irritable and agitated with only B-12.