Probiotics Can Cause Depression (?) Possible Pathogen, Candida, Th1/Th2 Immune Response

[Lotus97]

After starting and stopping probiotics a couple of times I've come to find out that each time I started them again it would cause a depression. I had been taking probiotics without a problem for awhile, but then I stopped them for about 5 weeks or so. When I started taking them I started to get depressed. Then after stopping them the depression gradually lifted. Then I tried them again a few weeks later and the same thing happened. I was wondering if anyone has any theories. So far I have 2 theories. One is that it's due to some pathogen reacting with the probiotics. The other theory I've read is that probiotics can cause a Th2 immune response if a person is Th2 dominant (or Th1 if the person is Th1 dominant). There are certain Th1 and Th2 cytokines that can induce depression. I've also read that candida can cause a shift to Th2 dominance so it could be a combination of the two theories, but I'd like to hear of any alternate theories and strategies because I don't think it's a good idea to abstain from probiotics indefinitely. Right now I'm taking various supplements such as garlic, olive leaf extract, oregano oil, spilanthes, and noni juice to kill off any pathogen. And I'm taking inosine and a few other supplements to shift from Th2 to Th1, but also some supplements listed as Th2 that inhibit inflammatory cytokines to make sure my immune system doesn't go crazy.

 

[Plum]

I haven't heard of this before. But I do know there is the gut brain connection: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gut-second-brain

The other thing it makes me think of is that maybe you have a large number of bad bacteria and as you add in the good they are fighting to stay alive! As the bad ones are dying off maybe they are releasing toxins which are causing you to be depressed?

What probiotic do you take? How many million or billion and what strains?

As a side note - if you take oregano the best is P73.

Have you been checked for parasites? Have you done a parasite cleanse?

 

[golden]

I haven't come round to any synthetic, manufactured pill yet. I am taking some though reluctantly.

It could just be that its 'manufactured'.

My naturopath suggested to me for gut health: live saurkraut (must be live)

and kefir. I have never tried kefir so I can not personally recommend it, but it maybe worth researching?

 

[Lotus97]

I haven't heard of this before. But I do know there is the gut brain connection: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gut-second-brain

The other thing it makes me think of is that maybe you have a large number of bad bacteria and as you add in the good they are fighting to stay alive! As the bad ones are dying off maybe they are releasing toxins which are causing you to be depressed?

What probiotic do you take? How many million or billion and what strains?

As a side note - if you take oregano the best is P73.

Have you been checked for parasites? Have you done a parasite cleanse?

Funny that you mention it, I just ordered P73 Super Strength Someone suggested putting the drops in a capsule rather than mixing it with water so I might try that. I assume I should start with a low dose...A few years ago for candida treatment I took a lot of raw garlic and herxed pretty bad. I could barely get out of bed. It actually wasn't a bad feeling though (sort of like being on some kind of drug). My mom was annoyed though because I needed her to do all my food shopping during that period.

Several CFS experts including Dr. Cheney and Rich believe that many people with CFS are Th2 dominant. There's a great thread that discusses all the possible contributing factors to a Th2 shift
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...2-shift-and-possible-drugs-to-alter-it.15835/
As far as probiotics triggering a Th2 immune response, this is the information I found. The person seems to think that candida is a cause of shifting to Th2 (he's selling anti-candida products BTW).
http://candidaplan.com/blog/766/candida-diets-part-vii-probiotics/

Knowing when to supplement with probiotics on a candida diet can be as important as any other part of a successful approach to correcting fungal candida. Starting off a candida diet with the use of probiotics may be counter-productive. When antibiotics destroy the bacterial flora, the conversion of candida from its normal yeast state to its problematic fungal state takes place rapidly. With the fungal candida in place, and the re-population of the intestinal tract still many months away, candida takes over control of the intestinal tract. As bacteria begin to find their way back into the intestinal tract, candida regulates who grows back and who doesn’t. One of the most important probiotic species needed for health are the Lactobacilli bacteria. They produce acids that help regulate pH and the growth of candida. Fungal candida makes sure that this species doesn’t grow back. Without Lactobacilli bacteria, we lose production of B vitamins that are essential to all areas of health. This sets up a lifelong cycle of disease and imbalance within the body. Lactobacilli are the main species found in most probiotic formulas. As long as fungal candida is present, these important bacteria may not be able to have the effect that they otherwise would.
A second consideration in the timing of supplementing with probiotics relates to the immune system. Our immune system has two main aspects that exert the effects at various times. The first of these is the Th1 response. This is effective against viruses, fungi, parasites, and certain bacteria. The 2nd aspect is the Th2 response. This is effective against certain bacterial infections and is more commonly associated with allergies, asthma, etc. While this is a simplistic view of immune system responses, it effectively helps to communicate the importance of probiotic timing in candida diets. In fungal candida infections, candida is able to manipulate the immune system towards a Th2 dominance. This helps to ensure its own survival. Probiotics have a tendency to support whichever immune system response is dominant. In the case of fungal candida, this is going to be the Th2 dominance, and probiotics may actually end up helping candida’s cause. As with everything else, there will be some shifting back-and-forth between Th1 and Th2, but one side will usually be more active.
Given that fungal candida can limit regrowth of the very important Lactobacilli bacteria, and probiotics could end up helping fungal candida continue spreading throughout the body, correcting the fungal candida imbalance first before supplementing with probiotics will produce the best chance for success on a candida diet. This has been one of the key differences with the Candida Plan, as opposed to all other approaches available. Once you’ve re-established balance within the intestinal ecosystem, ongoing supplementation with probiotics will help to ensure greater health.

And for Th2 cytokines inducing depression this is what I was referring to:

--------------------------
The psychoneuroimmuno-pathophysiology of cytokine-induced depression in humans
by
Wichers M, Maes M.
Department of Psychiatry and Neuropsychology,
Maastricht University, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands.
Int J Neuropsychopharmacol 2002 Dec;5(4):375-88

ABSTRACT
Administration of the cytokines interferon-alpha and interleukin-2 is used for the treatment of various disorders, such as hepatitis C and various forms of cancer. The most serious side-effects are symptoms associated with depression, including fatigue, increased sleepiness, irritability, loss of appetite as well as cognitive changes. However, great differences exist in the prevalence of the development of depressive symptoms across studies. Differences in doses and duration of therapy may be sources of variation as well as individual differences of patients, such as a history of psychiatric illness. In addition, sensitization effects may contribute to differential responses of patients to the administration of cytokines. In animals administration of pro-inflammatory cytokines induces a pattern of behavioural alterations called 'sickness behaviour' which resembles the vegetative symptoms of depression in humans. Changes in serotonin (5-HT) receptors and in levels of 5-HT and its precursor tryptophan in depressed people support a role for 5-HT in the development of depression. In addition, evidence exists for a dysregulation of the noradrenergic system and a hyperactive hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis in depression. Some mechanisms exist which make it possible for cytokines to cross the blood-brain barrier. Pro-inflammatory cytokines such as IL-1beta, IFN-alpha, IFN-gamma and TNF-alpha affect the 5-HT metabolism directly and/or indirectly by stimulating the enzyme indoleamine 2,3-dioxygenase which leads to a peripheral depletion of tryptophan. IL-1, IL-2 and TNF-alpha influence noradrenergic activity and IL-1, IL-6 and TNF-alpha are found to be potent stimulators of the HPA axis. Altogether, administration of cytokines may induce alterations in the brain resembling those found in depressed patients, which leads to the hypothesis that cytokines induce depression by their influence on the 5-HT, noradrenergic and HPA system.

 

[Plum]

Good info The P73 stuff is STRONG! I was taking it for a while. Didn't have super strength though. Was putting 1 or 2 drops under my tongue and holding it there for 10 mins. Had to drink a lot of water after as it burns!!! Don't know what putting it in a capsule would be like. I would really suggest you start with just 1 drop! And work up from there. It's is super doopa strong stuff!

 

[sianrecovery]

This is a really interesting thread. I've taken probiotics for years, and recently noticed a distinct worsening of my symptoms with a new one, this makes sense of that. Thanks for posting.

 

[Lotus97]

This is a really interesting thread. I've taken probiotics for years, and recently noticed a distinct worsening of my symptoms with a new one, this makes sense of that. Thanks for posting.

I didn't seem to have any problems until I stopped probiotics for about 5 weeks and them resumed them. Since I've experienced 2 consecutive relapses in the past 6 months I'm considering the possibility my body shifted to Th2 dominance. But maybe it does also depend on the strains of probiotics. After a few months of trying to kill pathogens (my other theory) maybe I will try a different brand of probiotics when I'm ready to take them again. Do you think your new brand is more potent than the old one or does it have different strains? I've definitely heard of probiotics causing a herx. Is that the kind of symptoms you describe? For me it was just depression and it was completely unexpected because my mood had remained stable despite all my recent health problems. And herx for me I associated with physical symptoms, but I've heard one or two people say antibiotics caused depression. Is it possible for there to be different types of herxes for the same person? Even though I quoted your post, some of these questions are just me thinking out loud so that's ok if you don't know the answer.

 

[Junto]

Good info The P73 stuff is STRONG! I was taking it for a while. Didn't have super strength though. Was putting 1 or 2 drops under my tongue and holding it there for 10 mins. Had to drink a lot of water after as it burns!!! Don't know what putting it in a capsule would be like. I would really suggest you start with just 1 drop! And work up from there. It's is super doopa strong stuff!

Careful with that stuff, it kills good bacteria as well as bad. Do some research on proper dosage, it's not as benign as once thought to be.
http://benotaslave.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/kill-bacteria-and-viruses-slaughter-them/

 

[dannybex]

But maybe it does also depend on the strains of probiotics.

Most definitely. My friend Ken Lassesen knows a lot about probiotics, and had written a couple of blog posts about them, but for some reason his blog has disappeared temporarily. But the strains are very, very important -- from what I remember, the evidence suggested that the typical lactobacillus strains are not beneficial (in general) for those of us with ME/CFS.

I've emailed him and will let you know what's up -- and/or post a link to his blog if and when possible.

Edit: Okay, here's the link -- not sure why it didn't work before:

http://cfsremission.wordpress.com/category/microfloras/

Tons of info on his blog. He used to go to our local CFS support group meetings...I met him around summer 2005, when he attended as his wife was still ill. He recovered fully for about 10 years, but relapsed for about a year, but is back at work again.

 

[Lotus97]

Careful with that stuff, it kills good bacteria as well as bad. Do some research on proper dosage, it's not as benign as once thought to be.
http://benotaslave.wordpress.com/2009/04/27/kill-bacteria-and-viruses-slaughter-them/

Yeah, a lot of supplements such as garlic, oregano oil, and grapefruit seed extract have antibacterial properties (which are rarely ever mentioned when discussing candida), but I figure since probiotics might be causing problems right now I don't mind if I kill off some of them. Plus, I don't know what kind of pathogen I might have so something that's antibacterial, antimicrobial, and antifungal will take care of everything (I hope).

 

[Junto]

Yeah, a lot of supplements such as garlic, oregano oil, and grapefruit seed extract have antibacterial properties (which are rarely ever mentioned when discussing candida), but I figure since probiotics might be causing problems right now I don't mind if I kill off some of them. Plus, I don't know what kind of pathogen I might have so something that's antibacterial, antimicrobial, and antifungal will take care of everything (I hope).

Have you had lab tests yet? Some pathogen can only be eradicated with specific drugs. Also, you may have an underlining condition that needs to be resolved to prevent future infections, low stomach acid for example.

 

[sianrecovery]

That's a great link, Dannybex, thank you. Interesting stuff your friend had to write.
I've taken all sorts of probiotics over the years - the one that recently seemed to screw my gut up was recommended by a naturopath - Klaire Labs Therbiotic Complete. If some of the bugs, such as blastocytosis, can actually live on these 'friendly' bugs, I guess they may have a paradoxical effect for some.

 

[Marlène]

I discovered by coincidence that BIOTIN 10 mg = 10.000 mcg works perfect against CANDIDA. Spread the word

Biotin feeds on good bacteria and fungi in the gut. If you had antibiotics, take alpha lipoic acid, ... the biotin can no longer thrive and candida appears.

I believe people with epileptics should discuss this with their doctor but otherwise no contraindication.

 

[Lotus97]

I probably should mention this in case anyone reading this becomes afraid of probiotics. It seems like for most people probiotics actually helps improve depression (and anxiety). There was an article in Psychology Today about certain strains of probiotics being good for depression and others for anxiety. I think one of the strains mentioned in the article was infantis, but there have been several studies about probiotics helping depression such as this one on CFS patients
http://hbcprotocols.com/probioticarticle/
New research at the University of Toronto, found that a two month protocol of probiotics not only boosted chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) patients "good" bacteria in the gut but also led to a significant decrease in their depression and anxiety symptoms.

It has long been known that probiotics, “Good bacteria” taken in pill or powder form, help maintain healthy gut flora beneficial to general health. Countless studies have shown them to perform a wide variety of healthy functions, including improved digestion, regularity, and improved immune system functioning. But, this new study, published in the journal BMC Gut Pathogens breaks new ground, specifically their effect on the feel-good neurotransmitter L-tryptophan.

 

[sianrecovery]

I think people should become more discriminating in their use of probiotics - you definitely can have too much of a good thing.

 

[Lotus97]

It's not just how much, but also what type is the right type. And also maybe certain types are better for different people. I suppose I could say that about all supplements to certain extent.

 

[Beyond]

I discovered by coincidence that BIOTIN 10 mg = 10.000 mcg works perfect against CANDIDA. Spread the word

Biotin feeds on good bacteria and fungi in the gut. If you had antibiotics, take alpha lipoic acid, ... the biotin can no longer thrive and candida appears.

I believe people with epileptics should discuss this with their doctor but otherwise no contraindication.

Have you tried this yourself? I have seen this in other places as part of succesful protocols for candida.

 

[South]

I just have to mention, in case people misunderstand Marlene's post #13:
Biotin is not a living thing, it can't "feed on" bacteria and fungi; (biotin doesn't eat things), instead, the bacteria and fungi can eat the biotin.

Marlene, when you said "if you had antibiotics, take alpha lipoic acid", implying that alpha lipoic acid somehow affects either biotin or good bacteria, what did you mean?

 

[kraken]

Interesting thread. This happens for me too right now and also for the other 3 brands of probiotics I've tried in the past, gradually they tend to bring symptoms of typical depression i.e. lack of interest/energy and motivation, feelings of sadness/boredom.

I'm currently on Align probiotic for about a week, but also added in around 1/3th capsule of Renew life 15 billion, 6 bfido strains, maybe I'm going too fast with the renew life brand.

This seems to happen regardless of what probiotic I take so maybe there is an immune-response going on as you mention @Lotus97. But how could one get past this, have you found a way? I really need to improve my gut ecology and believe that probiotics is the way to go. I had a generally messed up gut for past years accompanied by some recently discovered homozygous FUT2 genes which implies less microbiota diversity, especially Bifido bacteria. After doing a Humaworm parasite and candida cleanse I thought the introduction of probiotics would be an easier ride, turns out it might be harder than I think.

 

[South]

What about taking 5htp while on a probiotics program, maybe that would prevent the depression that certain people apparently get from certain probiotics?

Since 5htp is the final form that tryptophan takes in the body before becoming serotonin, taking 5htp might be helpful. This would be instead of relying on tryptophan from the diet becoming converted into 5htp in the body -- maybe there is some mechanism in those people that, when they take certain probiotics that might affect th1 and th2, that also affects useage of tryptophan.

I'd be curious if for those people, other supplements that affect th1 and th2 - do those supplements also cause depression in those people?