What are people's thoughts and doses of adb12?

[Lotus97]

Very likely but in my case it is only the mb12. Meaning that if I cut mb12 in half the urine changes color. At the same time my sulfates excreted drop like a rock. So at present the mb12 seems to be the rate limiter.

However as Crux just linked an article maybe the adb12 I take is turning to mb12 so 2000 mcg mb12 and 2500 mcg adb12 may be a bit much. Then again the article Crux linked is in vitro which always makes me wonder.

Yeah, I've heard Rich say that adb12 can convert to mb12 too, but if it's true what adreno said about adb12 staying in the body a lot longer could that still be a problem? Hopefully, he'll weigh in on this subject. I haven't been able to locate much information about a ratio although I haven't dug very deep. If there isn't a problem with them being unbalanced then that might give people who can't tolerate methylcobalamin, but do ok with adenosylcobalamin an additional option. I'm not saying in place of hydroxocobalamin, but it might be helpful as an add on since adb12 has different functions than mb12 and some people might need more than just what comes from hb12. Most of the talk here is about methylcobalamin, which I get because that's what's needed for methylation (whether taken directly or converted from hydroxocobalamin) so I wonder how much the talk about some sort of a ratio is just theoretical. I suppose it never hurts to be cautious.

My dad who's only taking adb12 has MCS. While I don't want him doing methylation, I think taking B12 would be helpful for him. Even though my dad has MCS and is in his late 60s he still works full time. It helps a lot that he's an artist so he works at home and is thus able to limit his exposure. There's no way that he'd be able to work in an office. Even now, after he's made a very gradual recovery over the past 10 years working in an office would not be a possibility. Although working as an artist might seem easy, he does work very hard and he can't be dealing with monitoring his potassium all the time. Especially since some of his main symptoms are fatigue, sleepiness, and mind fog he might not realize if he has low potassium.

 

[dannybex]

My own results from 2010 that I showed Rich Vank were with low normal to low citric acid, cis-aconitic acid, and isocitric acid BUT middle of the range AKG and massively high glutamate (intraconversion and no glutathione drain at that time). But succinic acid was way low and malic acid was undetectable. Rich wasn't sure why that was happening but apparently pile-up at AKG is one of the three choke points. Can't remember the other two off-hand.

My results are IDENTICAL to yours Dbkita. I-dentical. Now if you tell me you were tested in August of 2010, then that would be scary.

Rich was very kind to evaluate my results, but I think he missed some things -- as did the NutrEval computer(!) -- and am now just finally trying to figure this out.

One thing that irks me re the NutrEval 'eval', is their recommendations for supplementation doesn't seem to match up with this huge drop off between the middle-range AKG and the extremely low succinic acid. For example, on page 2 of the report they rated my need for b6 and folate as "9's", while the need for B1 was rated as "0".

But B1 is needed not only to help make Acetyl CoA, but is also one of the key players listed (in tiny print) along the path from AKG to succinic -- where this steep drop off occurs. I've been taking benfotiamine off and on for a few years, but didn't find out until a couple of weeks ago that it doesn't get into the brain, so while it may have helped in the liver to some extent, the fact that I've been taking higher doses of folate, b12, and also TMG, may have depleted the B1, not to mention b2 as well. Sigh...

9-10 years ago a doctor prescribed methyl-b12 shots for about 6-9 months off and on -- and in hindsight, they really pulled me out of a worsening year. And then just 2 days ago when I was looking into thiamine a little more, my thick brain fog lifted just enough so that I recalled at one point trying injectable thiamine as well. I dug out the file folder for the doc, and sure enough, found a receipt for thiamine injections from July 2004. I'm not sure if I ever had a refill, but anyway, both the b12 and b1 really helped back then, so am considering a trial of thiamine again...and possibly b12.

 

[dbkita]

My results are IDENTICAL to yours Dbkita. I-dentical. Now if you tell me you were tested in August of 2010, then that would be scary.

Rich was very kind to evaluate my results, but I think he missed some things -- as did the NutrEval computer(!) -- and am now just finally trying to figure this out.

One thing that irks me re the NutrEval 'eval', is their recommendations for supplementation doesn't seem to match up with this huge drop off between the middle-range AKG and the extremely low succinic acid. For example, on page 2 of the report they rated my need for b6 and folate as "9's", while the need for B1 was rated as "0".

But B1 is needed not only to help make Acetyl CoA, but is also one of the key players listed (in tiny print) along the path from AKG to succinic -- where this steep drop off occurs. I've been taking benfotiamine off and on for a few years, but didn't find out until a couple of weeks ago that it doesn't get into the brain, so while it may have helped in the liver to some extent, the fact that I've been taking higher doses of folate, b12, and also TMG, may have depleted the B1, not to mention b2 as well. Sigh...

9-10 years ago a doctor prescribed methyl-b12 shots for about 6-9 months off and on -- and in hindsight, they really pulled me out of a worsening year. And then just 2 days ago when I was looking into thiamine a little more, my thick brain fog lifted just enough so that I recalled at one point trying injectable thiamine as well. I dug out the file folder for the doc, and sure enough, found a receipt for thiamine injections from July 2004. I'm not sure if I ever had a refill, but anyway, both the b12 and b1 really helped back then, so am considering a trial of thiamine again...and possibly b12.

Heh I was tested in Oct 2010 sorry.

My story may have been a little different since my autoimmune disease destroys the enzyme that creates GABA and my Celiac's is known to lead to high levels of peripheral glutamate. Now my glutamine to glutamate ratio is a healthy six the RIGHT direction. My gaba is still low. C'est la vie.

You are right about of B1. Have you thought of allithiamine? I just bought a bottle I am planning to try some time in the next couple months (I test things slowly nowadays). The allithiamine will go through the BBB.

Aluminum can block that stage as well. There is something else that is relevant but I will have to dig that up and get back to you.

I do know until about 4 months ago that for some reason, b1, b5, and biotin made me feel worse and tired. But once I did the adb12 and altered the methylation protocol and changed my T3 protocol, suddenly I can take all of them and they are helpful. So it is a very nonlinear process sometimes.

Take care.

 

[Lotus97]

What do you do if you're low in succinic acid? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

 

[dbkita]

What do you do if you're low in succinic acid? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

You take adb12 to help make succinyl coa. Otherwise you remove the block from AKG to succinic acid. Or both.

 

[Freddd]

Heh I was tested in Oct 2010 sorry.

My story may have been a little different since my autoimmune disease destroys the enzyme that creates GABA and my Celiac's is known to lead to high levels of peripheral glutamate. Now my glutamine to glutamate ratio is a healthy six the RIGHT direction. My gaba is still low. C'est la vie.

You are right about of B1. Have you thought of allithiamine? I just bought a bottle I am planning to try some time in the next couple months (I test things slowly nowadays). The allithiamine will go through the BBB.

Aluminum can block that stage as well. There is something else that is relevant but I will have to dig that up and get back to you.

I do know until about 4 months ago that for some reason, b1, b5, and biotin made me feel worse and tired. But once I did the adb12 and altered the methylation protocol and changed my T3 protocol, suddenly I can take all of them and they are helpful. So it is a very nonlinear process sometimes.

Take care.

Hi Dbkita,

do know until about 4 months ago that for some reason, b1, b5, and biotin made me feel worse and tired. But once I did the adb12 and altered the methylation protocol and changed my T3 protocol, suddenly I can take all of them and they are helpful. So it is a very nonlinear process sometimes.

A very nonlinear process indeed. Not only nonlinear, discontinuous as well. Combinations matter. I'm glad to hear that you have found this helpful. In my experience many of these things put in motion take up to 12 months to mostly complete.

 

[dannybex]

Heh I was tested in Oct 2010 sorry.

My story may have been a little different since my autoimmune disease destroys the enzyme that creates GABA and my Celiac's is known to lead to high levels of peripheral glutamate. Now my glutamine to glutamate ratio is a healthy six the RIGHT direction. My gaba is still low. C'est la vie.

You are right about of B1. Have you thought of allithiamine? I just bought a bottle I am planning to try some time in the next couple months (I test things slowly nowadays). The allithiamine will go through the BBB.

Aluminum can block that stage as well. There is something else that is relevant but I will have to dig that up and get back to you.

I haven't tried allithiamine yet, but have read about it, mostly from Lonsdale's work. In some ways, thiamine deficiency (beri-beri, which translates to "I can't, I can't"), at least when it becomes severe, sure sounds a lot like ME/CFS...but of course there are always other issues involved as well. But still...might start a thread on thiamine, as it's definitely important.

I've read that glutamate needs b2, b6 and manganese to convert it to gaba -- this was from the book "The Healing Nutrients Within", by Braverman, etc. Also that taurine helps as well. ???

My aluminum was actually lower a year ago than it was back in 2002, so not sure how that happened! But arsenic is always the highest on my charts, probably due to the rice I eat almost daily. Not sure what helps chelate that, but perhaps selenium?

 

[dannybex]

You take adb12 to help make succinyl coa. Otherwise you remove the block from AKG to succinic acid. Or both.

Thanks -- didn't know of the adb12 connection. Again, not on the NutrEval report, although they do list what you need re the AKG-Succinic block.

I just got a new selenium -- the Jarrow brand -- and it has a tiny amount of vitamin e in it as 'd-alpha tocopheryl succinate'.

 

[Freddd]

I haven't tried allithiamine yet, but have read about it, mostly from Lonsdale's work. In some ways, thiamine deficiency (beri-beri, which translates to "I can't, I can't"), at least when it becomes severe, sure sounds a lot like ME/CFS...but of course there are always other issues involved as well. But still...might start a thread on thiamine, as it's definitely important.

I've read that glutamate needs b2, b6 and manganese to convert it to gaba -- this was from the book "The Healing Nutrients Within", by Braverman, etc. Also that taurine helps as well. ???

My aluminum was actually lower a year ago than it was back in 2002, so not sure how that happened! But arsenic is always the highest on my charts, probably due to the rice I eat almost daily. Not sure what helps chelate that, but perhaps selenium?

Hi Dan,

Arsenic, now there is something that reacts in vivo very rapidly with MeCbl. Each atom of arsenic combines with the methyl groups from MeCbl, stripping 4 (or more, several forms) molecules for each atom forming an extremely volatile poison gas that is exhaled via the lungs. If you were to take say, 10mg of MeCbl, spend the afternoon outside where the poison arsenate gasses can disperse. They will give a garlic like odor to ones breath. This has not been performed intentionally with arsenic poisoning and reversal but it has been observed following poisoning. Enough MeCbl appears to prevent accumulation of arsenic. Arsenic has a short serum halflife normally. The arsenate gasses appear to speed that up and get exhaled largely in the first pass through the lungs. The extreme volatility is noted as well as the actual hazard to accumulating the poison gas in a closed room.

 

[dannybex]

Interesting Freddd...thanks! I haven't had garlic-breath in years...perhaps I need to 'up' my mb12?

Arsenic definitely interferes in the citric acid cycle where I (and Dbkita) are having issues:

Arsenic effects are multiple and complex in terms of biochemistry. The mitochondria of cells accumulate the element. The pyruvate dehydrogenase complex (catalyzes formation of acetyl coenzyme A from mitochondrial pyruvic acid) is inhibited by As+++. Pyruvic acidosis may result; citric acid cycle function and formation of ATP are slowed. The citric acid cycle itself is impaired at the alpha-ketoglutaric acid dehydrogenase step; formation of succinyl coenzyme A is impaired.

 

[dbkita]

Interesting Freddd...thanks! I haven't had garlic-breath in years...perhaps I need to 'up' my mb12?

Arsenic definitely interferes in the citric acid cycle where I (and Dbkita) are having issues:

Arsenic effects are multiple and complex in terms of biochemistry. The mitochondria of cells accumulate the element. The pyruvate dehydrogenase complex (catalyzes formation of acetyl coenzyme A from mitochondrial pyruvic acid) is inhibited by As+++. Pyruvic acidosis may result; citric acid cycle function and formation of ATP are slowed. The citric acid cycle itself is impaired at the alpha-ketoglutaric acid dehydrogenase step; formation of succinyl coenzyme A is impaired.

Ironically though not directly tested, my recent serum and urine amino acids suggest I am low in AKG and I am definitely low normal in glutamate in the periphery. So my profile is totally different than 3 years ago. Sadly I don't have the money atm to whip out for a new updated NutraEval.

Arsenic has never showed up on any test for me blood or hair. Fortunately.