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THE STAGES OF METHYLATION AND HEALING

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Kind of a pickle since hard to get high DHA without EPA from what I can see.
Why? You can get DHA in caps. There are also several fish oils that have a better ratio of EPA to DHA. In wild fish, this is also normally the case. The usual fish oil ratio of 180:120 is skewed. The salmon oil I take for instance, has more DHA than EPA.
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
Why? You can get DHA in caps. There are also several fish oils that have a better ratio of EPA to DHA. In wild fish, this is also normally the case. The usual fish oil ratio of 180:120 is skewed. The salmon oil I take for instance, has more DHA than EPA.

Hmm you are quite correct.

Just saw these: http://www.drugstore.com/nordic-naturals-dha-1000-soft-gels-strawberry/qxp342798?catid=183248

For the life of me I never thought there existed DHA heavy ones.
My doctor wanted me taking 1000-1500 mg of DHA a day, which was a hard task without getting a ton of EPA.
Maybe I can do a combo solution with a couple of DHA caps and the usual tspn of normal stuff for the rest.

Thanks :)
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Hmm you are quite correct.

Just saw these: http://www.drugstore.com/nordic-naturals-dha-1000-soft-gels-strawberry/qxp342798?catid=183248

For the life of me I never thought there existed DHA heavy ones.
My doctor wanted me taking 1000-1500 mg of DHA a day, which was a hard task without getting a ton of EPA.
Maybe I can do a combo solution with a couple of DHA caps and the usual tspn of normal stuff for the rest.

Thanks :)
You're welcome :)

This might also be a good one to try:

http://www.iherb.com/Nordic-Naturals-Prenatal-DHA-500-mg-180-Soft-Gels/43653
 

Xara

Senior Member
Messages
135
Location
The Netherlands
About the differences between (and similarites in) EPA and DHA:

Quote:
"The only way to control cellular inflammation in the brain is to maintain high levels of EPA in the blood. This is why all the work on depression, ADHD, brain trauma, etc. have demonstrated EPA to be superior to DHA
(...)
if you use high-dose DHA it is essential to add back trace amounts of GLA to maintain sufficient levels of DGLA to continue to produce anti-inflammatory eicosanoids.
(...)
the increased spatial territory swept out by DHA is good news for making certain areas of membranes more fluid or lipoprotein particles larger
(...)
both are equally effective in reducing triglyceride levels
(...)
equal activation of the anti-inflammatory gene transcription factor PPAR-gamma
(...)
Both seem to be equally effective in making powerful anti-inflammatory eicosanoids known as resolvins
(...)
DHA can increase the size of LDL particle to a greater extent than can EPA
(...)
Summary
EPA and DHA do different things, so you need them both, especially for the brain. If your goal is reducing cellular inflammation, then you probably need more EPA than DHA. How much more? Probably twice the levels, nonetheless you always cover your bets with omega-3 fatty acids by using both EPA and DHA at the same time."
Source
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-are-the-real-differences-between-epa-and-dha
or as tiny url: http://tinyurl.com/axytxn8

Quote:
"When addressing specific ailments or conditions related to inflammation, however, the ratio of EPA to DHA becomes very important and can determine the efficacy of any outcome, as their physiological actions are quite distinct.
(...)
it is suggested by a number of researchers that due to similarities in structure, EPA and DHA compete 1:1 for binding sites and that the DHA within a treatment regime appears to ‘block’ the therapeutic actions of EPA (Martins 2009; Bloch & Qawasmi et al, 2011; Sublette et al, 2011). In contrast, using pure ethyl-EPA has routinely been shown to increases the efficacy of a treatment regime and it is increasingly recognised that the absence [1] of DHA, and therefore absence of competition between EPA and DHA for biological sites of action, is responsible for the outcomes seen in such trials. Therefore oils containing DHA may not be suitable for the treatment of a variety of conditions and may explain the lack of efficacy with use of generic fish oils. "
Source:
http://igennus.com/fat-facts/epadha-ratio/
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Very interesting on the interactions of the oils components. I have found, at least for me to recover to this point and maintain that, that I have to take advantage of every little thing that makes a difference. If higher proportion DHA can make a difference it it could be helpful. At a macro level of symptoms, the question comes down to what symptoms demonstrate the need and what changes when it is met? Does it make a noticable difference in other words?
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Some additional things here and there. I have found that separating my Metafolin from potassium and Vit C makes a very noticable difference. The past week I started taking the Metafolin 30 minutes before eating and taking my vitamins wth foods and other times. As I take 5 doses of potassium daily and 4 doses of Metfolin it used to be easy to take both sometimes at the same time. Now even more timing matters.

In this week I have emerged again from a round of Paradoxical folate deficiency. It appears that some part of the problem was an absorption problem from beoing combined with Vit C and/or potassium at various times. I have not trialed the vit C seperately so all I have confirmed is potassium.

In private communications this week a person who HAD anxiety and the extreme LCF reaction no longer has the extreme reaction, having endured the anxiety and effects and had them diminish and taking normal doses. It was a startup reaction and in several months it diminished and is no longer a problem. I'm hoping for a lot more details so maybe to figure out why and how. So the question is has this now allowed neurological healing to start, has there perhaps been a little already, or what? When people say X is "intolerable" I do understand that and have been there for any number of things. Continued Glutathione (precursors) at the dose I was taking and the other 9 were taking became intolerable to all of us. So the question is why and how?

In private communications a quite a few people are doing very well with the Deadlock Quartet. It comes down to seeing what isn't happening and finding the next step, the next "most limiting item" or what. I found thr first 50% of healing was relatively easy. Then it was a series of steps of diminishing returns, but always looking for the things that kept it moving in that direction which can include almost anything for any specific person. It's a shame that so many people don't feel they can post Deadlock Quartet or even single item AdoCbl, MeCbl, LCF and l-methylfolate sucesses in plain sight. The interchange above on fats, learning timing things, combinations, all that which having many folks with differring knowledge bases and experiences is an example , I think, of how things can work right.
 

pela

Senior Member
Messages
103
?

It's a shame that so many people don't feel they can post Deadlock Quartet or even single item AdoCbl, MeCbl, LCF and l-methylfolate sucesses in plain sight. The interchange above on fats, learning timing things, combinations, all that which having many folks with differring knowledge bases and experiences is an example , I think, of how things can work right.

Funny you should post this because I was just thinking about how much more energy I have. In addition to some light weight lifting, I have been jogging with no sign of exercise intolerance. I am coming up on 10 months of MB12, ADB12 and folate. A year ago if I tried jogging I would be floored for the rest of the day and maybe the next day,too. So thanks, Freddd.

Do you find that there are people who don't need LCF? I take it about 3 times a week and really don't notice much, whereas the other three (MB12, ADB12 and folate) were earth-shaking.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Funny you should post this because I was just thinking about how much more energy I have. In addition to some light weight lifting, I have been jogging with no sign of exercise intolerance. I am coming up on 10 months of MB12, ADB12 and folate. A year ago if I tried jogging I would be floored for the rest of the day and maybe the next day,too. So thanks, Freddd.

Do you find that there are people who don't need LCF? I take it about 3 times a week and really don't notice much, whereas the other three (MB12, ADB12 and folate) were earth-shaking.

Hi Pela,

In my experience so far, a sizable number don't find any difference with LCF or any other form of carnitine. The only way is to do a number of trials with each LCF and ALCAR and who knows what other forms might work. I'm preparing a post with all the things affected by carnitine for some people who need it and myself. In the AdoCbl, LCF chain there are also biotin and d-ribose., and no doubt a few more. When I took carnitne, my capacity for arobic exercise literally doubled overnight. It made more difference for me, energetically, than any other substance. It also reveresed my muscular atrophy. Both biotin and D-ribose can occasionally set it off in a big way.

My biggest caution is don't overdo. I increased distance by 50 feet a day. That is about mile in 3 months. I got up to 5 miles that way without overdoing it.

It sounds like you have had huge success in 10 months. That was also the point that I could start physical rehab. That was also wen my exercise intolerance went away, about a month after starting AdoCbl. Not noticing much is differrent than not noticing anything at all.

Now figure out what symptoms have been missed in all this improvement and see if some adjustments muight be made. Be in good health.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
This is a list of symptoms that are mine, and others experience of these nutritional items in relieving their symptoms, and in a very few instances reflect research and successful practice, such as p5p for Hcy and Liver extract studies of several disorders in old journals. In some instances the same symptoms might have different combinations of nutrients.

These symptoms responded strongly first to 5 star MeCbl and then Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.

Bursitis
stomach not emptying
frequent vomiting
acid regurgitation
dyspepsia
flatulence
altered bowel habits
abdominal pain
loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs, dairy, the only b12 contining foods
nutrient specific anorexia
intermittent constipation
intermittant diarrhea
irritable bowel syndrome
sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part
anorexia
Bullimia
Hypersensitivity to touch
Hypersensitivity to odors
Hypersensitivity to tastes
Hypersensitivity to clothing texture
Hypersensitivity to body malfunctions, symtoms
Hypersensitivity to sounds and noises
Hypersensitivity to light and visual stimuli
Hypersensitivity to blood sugar changes
Hypersensitivity to internal metabolic changes
Hypersensitivity to temperature changes
burning bladder (no UTI)
painful urgency (no UTI)
burning urethra (no UTI)
Low blood serum level - below 550pg/ml, Japanese Standard
elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin)
elevated LDH
big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it completely misinterpreting results of MCV
platelet disfunction, low count
white cell changes, low count
hypersegmented neutrophils
headaches
inflamed epithelial tissues - mucous membranes, skin, GI, vaginal, lungs
inflamed endothelial tissues - lining of veins and arteries
mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky
asthma
chronic cough that mimics asthma but isn't
chronic sinus congestion
dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash
frequent infected follicles or acne type lesions all over body
chronic infections, many varieties possible
Seborrheic dermatitis
dandruff
eczema
dermatitis
skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown or yellow if anemia occurs
poor hair condition
thin nails
transverse ridges on nails, can happen as healing starts
mouth sensitive to hot and cold
sore burning tongue
beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal
sore mouth, no infection or apparant reason
teeth sensitive to hot and cold
canker sores


with p5p added

Elevated blood serum Hcy, borderline or higher


These symptoms responded relatively partially first to 5 star MeCbl and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.




splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
impaired white blood cell response
poor resistance to infections
easy bruising
pronounced anemia
macrocytic anemia
megablastic anemia
pernicious anemia
decreased blood clotting
MCV > 93 first warning,
MCV > 97 alert
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
MCV > 105 urgently needs treatment, severe problem

Plus Vitamin E
Child with neural tube defects

mother of child with neural tube defect

These symptoms responded not at all first to 5 star and then very strongly to Metafolin with basics. Many started improving in hours. Some took 7 years to correct.


lack of dreaming
MCV > 100 outright macrocytosis
macrocytic anemia
metallic taste in mouth
Widespread body & muscle pain responding to NSAID
Joint pain responding to NSAIDS
splits/sores at corners of mouth -angular cheilitis
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
I NEVER suggested RICH was wrong.
This is how the whole thing started. With your comment:
So ATP startup in the brain, completely unsuspected by Rich, is thereby interpeted as any numbers of other things but NEVER ATP startup. That was an impossible answer in his mind prior to the discussion maybe a year ago and he never showed any expressed difference that I am aware of. That changes how things are interpreted. When the assumptions are wrong the inerpretations are wrong.
Then you posted dbkita's comments from another thread about Rich being wrong 4 times in this thread.
Again my comments were to SUPPORT your side of the argument you had with Rich Vank in that brain mitochondria are directly relevant to neuronal health.
Your comment in the original thread was in response to NOTHING in that thread. Even if the thread was about carnitine and ATP to bring up Rich's position was completely unnecessary. And then you do it again in this thread. If you are responding to an actual quote be Rich or someone supporting Rich's position that's completely different. I could care less if you disagree with Rich. You went out of your way to say Rich was wrong about your theory, but then you suggest this:
Rich was out to “prove” his theory.
I find this last statement very insulting especially after all you've done to prove your theory
 

Lotus97

Senior Member
Messages
2,041
Location
United States
I don't think it gets any more clear than this
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ded-in-methylation-treatmt.18670/#post-291415
With regard to the effect of methylB12 on nerve-related problems, I don't think the mechanism (or mechanisms) are agreed upon. Fundamentally, methylB12 and adenosylB12 are the only known active forms of B12 in humans. MethylB12 is a coenzyme for the methylation cycle, and adenosylB12 is a coenzyme in the mitochondria. So it would seem that either or both of these is involved. Assisting the mitochondria will raise ATP production, which is very important for powering the membrane ion pumps in neurons. Assisting methylation will help to repair the myelin on the axons, for one thing. Maybe those are involved.

Best regards, Rich
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
About the differences between (and similarites in) EPA and DHA:

Quote:
"The only way to control cellular inflammation in the brain is to maintain high levels of EPA in the blood. This is why all the work on depression, ADHD, brain trauma, etc. have demonstrated EPA to be superior to DHA
(...)
if you use high-dose DHA it is essential to add back trace amounts of GLA to maintain sufficient levels of DGLA to continue to produce anti-inflammatory eicosanoids.
(...)
the increased spatial territory swept out by DHA is good news for making certain areas of membranes more fluid or lipoprotein particles larger
(...)
both are equally effective in reducing triglyceride levels
(...)
equal activation of the anti-inflammatory gene transcription factor PPAR-gamma
(...)
Both seem to be equally effective in making powerful anti-inflammatory eicosanoids known as resolvins
(...)
DHA can increase the size of LDL particle to a greater extent than can EPA
(...)
Summary
EPA and DHA do different things, so you need them both, especially for the brain. If your goal is reducing cellular inflammation, then you probably need more EPA than DHA. How much more? Probably twice the levels, nonetheless you always cover your bets with omega-3 fatty acids by using both EPA and DHA at the same time."
Source
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-are-the-real-differences-between-epa-and-dha

Quote:
"When addressing specific ailments or conditions related to inflammation, however, the ratio of EPA to DHA becomes very important and can determine the efficacy of any outcome, as their physiological actions are quite distinct.
(...)
it is suggested by a number of researchers that due to similarities in structure, EPA and DHA compete 1:1 for binding sites and that the DHA within a treatment regime appears to ‘block’ the therapeutic actions of EPA (Martins 2009; Bloch & Qawasmi et al, 2011; Sublette et al, 2011). In contrast, using pure ethyl-EPA has routinely been shown to increases the efficacy of a treatment regime and it is increasingly recognised that the absence [1] of DHA, and therefore absence of competition between EPA and DHA for biological sites of action, is responsible for the outcomes seen in such trials. Therefore oils containing DHA may not be suitable for the treatment of a variety of conditions and may explain the lack of efficacy with use of generic fish oils. "
Source:
http://igennus.com/fat-facts/epadha-ratio/
I just checked with my neuroendocrinologist via email, he said for his patients with autoimmune diseases especially in the CNS that he wants a very high ratio of DHA to EPA. Like as in 10:1. I will have to ask him why next appt.

He mentioned that EPA can exacerbate the autoimmune response. Might explain the fatigue on high doses of regular fish oil
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
This is how the whole thing started. With your comment:
So ATP startup in the brain, completely unsuspected by Rich, is thereby interpeted as any numbers of other things but NEVER ATP startup. That was an impossible answer in his mind prior to the discussion maybe a year ago and he never showed any expressed difference that I am aware of. That changes how things are interpreted. When the assumptions are wrong the inerpretations are wrong.
Then you posted dbkita's comments from another thread about Rich being wrong 4 times in this thread.
Again my comments were to SUPPORT your side of the argument you had with Rich Vank in that brain mitochondria are directly relevant to neuronal health.
Your comment in the original thread was in response to NOTHING in that thread. Even if the thread was about carnitine and ATP to bring up Rich's position was completely unnecessary. And then you do it again in this thread. If you are responding to an actual quote be Rich or someone supporting Rich's position that's completely different. I could care less if you disagree with Rich. You went out of your way to say Rich was wrong about your theory, but then you suggest this:
Rich was out to “prove” his theory.
I find this last statement very insulting especially after all you've done to prove your theory

Lotus,

You take it out of context. I said he was wrong about a number of specific things. I have NOT saidf that partial methylation block is wrong. I disagree about HyCbl, that glutathione lack CAUSES these diseases, lack of glutathione is result of the methylation blockage You make all sorts of wild accusations that you invent and then when I dissagree you yank it out of context and do it again.

What kind of weird game are you playing here?
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Sexual related symptoms, both men and women – These responded with the most response to lesser responses in order to MeCbl, Metafolin (l-methylfolate), AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate

reduced libido - loss of sexual desire
loss of orgasmic intensity
unsatisfying orgasms
inability to orgasm
loss and/or change of genital sensations
burning genital skin sensation
unable to feel aroused
numb genital skin
low sex hormones

MEN

In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
low testosterone men

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
erectile disfunction men

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
low sperm count
poor sperm motility
Poor sperm quality
no sperm


WOMEN

In order of response – MeCbl, AdoCbl
low testosterone
low estrogen

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl, L-carnitine fumarate
post partum depression
post partum psychosis

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin, AdoCbl
Frequent miscarriage

In order of response – MeCbl, Metafolin
False positive pap smears, defective cells
menstrual symptoms
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I just checked with my neuroendocrinologist via email, he said for his patients with autoimmune diseases especially in the CNS that he wants a very high ratio of DHA to EPA. Like as in 10:1. I will have to ask him why next appt.

He mentioned that EPA can exacerbate the autoimmune response. Might explain the fatigue on high doses of regular fish oil

Hi Dbkita,

A few people I have run into have had an intense energy/mood change from oils, srimulating too much.. It was different with different oils. That was 5 or 6 years ago and no real conclusions were were reached of which I am aware.
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
Some additional things here and there. I have found that separating my Metafolin from potassium and Vit C makes a very noticable difference. The past week I started taking the Metafolin 30 minutes before eating and taking my vitamins wth foods and other times. As I take 5 doses of potassium daily and 4 doses of Metfolin it used to be easy to take both sometimes at the same time. Now even more timing matters.

In this week I have emerged again from a round of Paradoxical folate deficiency. It appears that some part of the problem was an absorption problem from beoing combined with Vit C and/or potassium at various times. I have not trialed the vit C seperately so all I have confirmed is potassium.

In private communications this week a person who HAD anxiety and the extreme LCF reaction no longer has the extreme reaction, having endured the anxiety and effects and had them diminish and taking normal doses. It was a startup reaction and in several months it diminished and is no longer a problem. I'm hoping for a lot more details so maybe to figure out why and how. So the question is has this now allowed neurological healing to start, has there perhaps been a little already, or what? When people say X is "intolerable" I do understand that and have been there for any number of things. Continued Glutathione (precursors) at the dose I was taking and the other 9 were taking became intolerable to all of us. So the question is why and how?

In private communications a quite a few people are doing very well with the Deadlock Quartet. It comes down to seeing what isn't happening and finding the next step, the next "most limiting item" or what. I found thr first 50% of healing was relatively easy. Then it was a series of steps of diminishing returns, but always looking for the things that kept it moving in that direction which can include almost anything for any specific person. It's a shame that so many people don't feel they can post Deadlock Quartet or even single item AdoCbl, MeCbl, LCF and l-methylfolate sucesses in plain sight. The interchange above on fats, learning timing things, combinations, all that which having many folks with differring knowledge bases and experiences is an example , I think, of how things can work right.

For me separation from vitamin C made a BIG difference. Ascorbic acid 2 grams simultaneous was a big problem. There was a noticeable improvement going to 2 grams of buffered mineral ascorbate. Another improvement when going away from vitamin C altogether (though the jump from ascorbic acid to mineral ascorbate was more critical).

The potassium may depend on what form of potassium you aupplement. Food has lots of potassium in it, but all bound up in various forms.

I wonder if there are absorption benefits to taking with no food at all. Has that been answered one way or the other?
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
For me separation from vitamin C made a BIG difference. Ascorbic acid 2 grams simultaneous was a big problem. There was a noticeable improvement going to 2 grams of buffered mineral ascorbate. Another improvement when going away from vitamin C altogether (though the jump from ascorbic acid to mineral ascorbate was more critical).

The potassium may depend on what form of potassium you aupplement. Food has lots of potassium in it, but all bound up in various forms.

I wonder if there are absorption benefits to taking with no food at all. Has that been answered one way or the other?

Hi Dbkita,

Folate, of all sorts, appears to be absorbed very welll with or without food. It has excellent oral avaiality by what I've read during the years. I find them about the same except now I take the folate all without food, 30 minutes before food. It's just one more inconvienient thing after another. I would hate to have to take 100 different pills a day all at different times in specifc orders. Yikes. I take 6 grams of ascorbic acid with bioflavinoids one a day as I don't reliably eat two meals.
 

dbkita

Senior Member
Messages
655
Hi Dbkita,

Folate, of all sorts, appears to be absorbed very welll with or without food. It has excellent oral avaiality by what I've read during the years. I find them about the same except now I take the folate all without food, 30 minutes before food. It's just one more inconvienient thing after another. I would hate to have to take 100 different pills a day all at different times in specifc orders. Yikes. I take 6 grams of ascorbic acid with bioflavinoids one a day as I don't reliably eat two meals.
Understood.

But yeah I noticed big effects moving 2 grams of ascorbic acid away (like 30 minute lag time). I can imagine 6 grams could really interfere with simultaneous ingestion.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Understood.

But yeah I noticed big effects moving 2 grams of ascorbic acid away (like 30 minute lag time). I can imagine 6 grams could really interfere with simultaneous ingestion.

Yes, and making it even worse, I was taking potassium on wake and bedtime with my Metafolin at the same time. I wonder if the regular 2 `week cycle will disappear. Wouldn't that be nice.
 

triffid113

Day of the Square Peg
Messages
829
Location
Michigan
Interesting about the EPA shutting down HPA. I have noticed that 9g of fish oil can fix my allergies but that not all; fish oil works for me (at least at that dose) and figured it had something to do with EPA:DHA ratio. Unfortunately the first brand I found that works is a cheap brand that does not specify the ratio and I have not wanted to waste a lot of money trying other brands to see what the necessary ratio is.