Glutathione: Pro / Con arguments confuse me!

[Lotus97]

Hi Lotus,

Anybody willing to take enough b12 to be strongly visible in their urine and then a suitable dose of glutathione can see with their very own eyes the b12 pouring put of their body regardless of ANYBODY's theory or explanation.

However, glutathion in natural amounts does not appear to do so. However, maybe the reason why b12 has a serum halflife of 20-50 minutes after absorption is because that is the natural glutathione flusing it out until the glutathine level is brought down. I don't know. If however, NAC causes an increase of glutathione above a certain level so as to induce "NAC detox" (methyltrap) , then it too would have already flushed available active b12 from the body. If paradoxical folate deficiency is present it could also be ythat flushing at a lower level of inensity.

And as already discussed, Rich's explanation is flawed as it depends on complrtely wrong assumptions about me. Further Rich says nothing about flushing B12 out of the body. I doubt that he ever observed or ex[perienced it. He did'n't re-write anything I am aware of taking recognition of this easily demonstrable fact into account.

In Rich's explanation he mentioned 3 groups. It's not just about you. For those in the first group, glutathione will actually protect B12. It's true that Rich's explanation regarding you is theoretical. We don't know why this happens to some people, but it doesn't happen to everyone. I agree that NAC and glutathione probably aren't the best ways to raise glutathione even if they don't remove B12 from an individual's body. We don't know how prevalent this is so maybe you're right that to be on the safe side everyone should avoid NAC and glutathione. I just wanted to point out that it doesn't happen to everyone. What you say about this and what Rich say are both theoretical and we really don't know exactly what's going on or how prevalent it is. Glutathione, NAC, and non-denatured whey were used for a period of time because they seemed to be helping a significant number of individuals. Although Rich and Dr. Cheney among many others discarded the treatment eventually since it seemed to only provide a temporary benefit, enough people didn't have an adverse reaction or the treatment would have been discontinued immediately.

That said, raising glutathione is very important and it would be a mistake for anyone reading this to assume that glutathione in general is bad. It's seems raising glutathione via NAC, L-Cysteine, L-Glutathione, and non-denatured whey could have deleterious effects on some individuals. However, improving mitochondrial function and getting the Krebs Cycle going will also raise glutathione and many of the supplements in your protocol do just that. When glutathione is depleted that causes B12 to become depleted. And as I mentioned before one of the main purposes of methylation is to raise glutathione. Some of the people here seem to be confused about glutathione so this stuff needs to be made clear.

 

[serg1942]

Dear Freddd,

Please, be more respectful with someone who devoted his whole life to us, for no money and for no reward other than the satisfaction of trying to help others who are in deep pain.

Of course you can completely disagree with his work, but you can do it by expressing yourself politely, and showing at least a bit of the self-respect and dignity he always showed.

I won't reply more here, so do not waste your time in replying . But please, and I'm asking from the bottom of my heart, respect Rich, especially now that he is not here to defend himself. Focus on science, and behave as the professional you try to be (I'm sure you can do this).

Sergio

 

[xjhuez]

Raising glutathione is not going to remove b12 from your body. Many of the supplements in Freddd's protocol will raise glutathione and one of the main functions of methylation is to raise glutathione. As for taking glutathione and maybe NAC you can see Rich's explanation why this might affect some people
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...o-con-arguments-confuse-me.21963/#post-336171

Hi Lotus97,

Thanks for the reply and the link - I did read what Rich wrote about glutathione and b12. I haven't been on mb12 long enough to know which of those 3 categories I fall into.

I understand NAC may or may not have an effect on b12. However, NAC doesn't need remain a staple of my regimen - I have no measurable evidence that it's helped me. I've been taking it for a year now and could probably stand for a break. Hopefully, as you said, raising methylation will raise my glutathione, as well as ameliorating some of my other issues.

 

[xjhuez]

Hi Xjhuez,

No, I couldn't find anything on google scholar either. I don't think it exists, or if it does it isn't obvious. For instance, if you look up "NAC detox symptoms" you will find the clues. However, researchers don't call those symptoms "detox" generally. So what do they call them? Side effects Then unless a person takes relatively large amounts of b12s, there isn't enough to be visible. The visible flushing of b12 from the body by glutathione and NAC are original right here. NAC and glutithione "detox" as act

Side effects (mostly gastrointestinal)
occurred in 16% of patients taking NAC and in none of the patients taking placebo.

and some notable side effects during treatment with NAC

This study showed that intravenous NAC is gener- ally safe but side effects are common (14%)

Anyway, may, if one looked at all the factors,dose, other drugs, initial ailments etc there might be some evidence. Not everybody who take NAC develops "detox". Gastro side effects were the most common I saw, and that could be methyltrap. But people in methyltrap may be getting treated for all sorts of things and since nothing would change, no side effects. Nobody being so treated is going to have enough b12 in their bodies to see in urine.

Good luck.

Hi Freddd, thanks for the reply.

I'm new here, obviously. I posted about my issues and my SNPs over on the Genetic testing forum. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ion-snps-your-help-greatly-appreciated.21983/

Google scholar aside, I did read somewhere (Chris Kresser maybe? I can't find it now unfortunately) that was essentially agreeing with you about potential neurological damage from an abundance of glutathione in the brain via supplements. In addition, it is a potent chelator, and I've wondered about it robbing me of minerals. I should probably find out what my Zn:Cu ratio is. Anyway, I started taking NAC because it is "glutamatergic" and is supposed to help reduce OCD and NMDA/wired but tired issues. Whether it actually did I can't say - the effect is subtle and could be attributed to placebo for all I know. Since finding out I have a mutation in MTHFR and related SNPs I'm taking a new course of action, and if it requires taking a break from NAC, that's alright.

 

[Tristen]

I didn't know Rich had passed until just recently. I was shocked and sad. His formula helped me tremendously and he obviosly cared deeply about helping our community. I've talked and read up on his relationship with other reaserachers who all say the same. I even stumbled upon a doc in the Bay Area (Kunin) who knew him well and held him in high esteem. Rich voluntarily helped me by phone and email with the obvious motive of truly caring about my well being. I will miss him. I never once felt his motivation was other than true care and concern.

I could not take the straight G until I had been on Rich's protocol for several months. At that point I used the Liposomal G.

 

[Jorlev]

Well, just got some test results in. I am MTHFR A1298C homozygous, negative for C677T. This has apparently been linked to neurological disorders and high NO and peroxinitrite. Also Blood tests showed low levels of Carnitine.

From my readings elsewhere, I don't know that having reduced G is the best thing to have even if there's a B12 depletion issue. Seem that G is a beneficial element in the body and since I have the A1298C mutation I may have less of it than I should. Don't know that I want to supplement with NAC till I discuss it with Dr., but this issue bares further investigation.

Also, it seems A1298C may not require as much methyfolate at C677T does. My issue may be BH4 deficiency and the recently discovered Carnitine issue more than B12s and methylfolate. Hope at some point we can reach a consensus on glutathione. Perhaps I can get my levels tested.

 

[Lotus97]

Well, just got some test results in. I am MTHFR A1298C homozygous, negative for C677T. This has apparently been linked to neurological disorders and high NO and peroxinitrite. Also Blood tests showed low levels of Carnitine.

From my readings elsewhere, I don't know that having reduced G is the best thing to have even if there's a B12 depletion issue. Seem that G is a beneficial element in the body and since I have the A1298C mutation I may have less of it than I should. Don't know that I want to supplement with NAC till I discuss it with Dr., but this issue bares further investigation.

Also, it seems A1298C may not require as much methyfolate at C677T does. My issue may be BH4 deficiency and the recently discovered Carnitine issue more than B12s and methylfolate. Hope at some point we can reach a consensus on glutathione. Perhaps I can get my levels tested.

What Freddd was saying was that taking glutathione or NAC to raise glutathione can potentially cause problems in some people. Other methods of raising glutathione are quite beneficial and necessary. Methylation, Krebs cycle, ATP, and mitochondrial support are all very good ways to raise glutathione.

 

[Freddd]

What Freddd was saying was that taking glutathione or NAC to raise glutathione can potentially cause problems in some people. Other methods of raising glutathione are quite beneficial and necessary. Methylation, Krebs cycle, ATP, and mitochondrial support are all very good ways to raise glutathione.

HI Lotus,

I can agree 100%. There can be excess glutathione. When the body's systems are working correctly glutathione gets made to sufficiency without the risk of overdoing it. There is a delicate balance. It's excess glutathione that is a problem.

 

[Helen]

Hi all,

I belive we will see that polymorphisms in the GST genes are quite common among people with ME/CFS who has problem with recovery . I have, so far, seen gene test results (Genovations DetoxiGenomics) from five sick people and they all had some , or many, polymorphisms among the GST genes which might decrease the capacity to conjugate with glutathione.
Maybe these people are those who don´t tolerate supplementing with glutathione or precursors?
(There are some studies on PubMed discussing these polymorphisms and how they relate to mercury burden in the body.)

Four of them also had the Comprehensive Methylation Panel from Yasko confirming polymorphisms in the methylation cycle.

So, first they probably can´t make enough glutathione (two of them stated in a Methylation Panel from Vitamindiagnostics), and second they can´t make use of it even if they succeed to increase the glutathione. As far as I know there are no supplements that can compensate for the GST polymorphisms. Anyone who knows?

I talked to Rich about this when he visited Sweden, and he got the test results to study. He agreed to this kind of "worst case" for us.

Helen

 

[Freddd]

Hi all,

I belive we will see that polymorphisms in the GST genes are quite common among people with ME/CFS who has problem with recovery . I have, so far, seen gene test results (Genovations DetoxiGenomics) from five sick people and they all had some , or many, polymorphisms among the GST genes which might decrease the capacity to conjugate with glutathione.
Maybe these people are those who don´t tolerate supplementing with glutathione or precursors?
(There are some studies on PubMed discussing these polymorphisms and how they relate to mercury burden in the body.)

Four of them also had the Comprehensive Methylation Panel from Yasko confirming polymorphisms in the methylation cycle.

So, first they probably can´t make enough glutathione (two of them stated in a Methylation Panel from Vitamindiagnostics), and second they can´t make use of it even if they succeed to increase the glutathione. As far as I know there are no supplements that can compensate for the GST polymorphisms. Anyone who knows?

I talked to Rich about this when he visited Sweden, and he got the test results to study. He agreed to this kind of "worst case" for us.

Helen

Hi Helen,

Very interesting. Can you tell me as broadly and specifically as possible all the symtpoms and signs that are affected in various ways by which supplements and which symptoms and signs are NOT helped. Perhaps I could offer some possibilites of what might work for the unhelped or little helped. The larger/better the list, potentially the better correseponding list ofthings that might be predicted to help. They have to be on the list of symptoms in the Active B12 protocol Basics. Is there a video of Rich's or a specific papaer that addresses this?

 

[Helen]

Hi Freddd,

Thanks for offering help! But all of them have had amalgam fillings that gives a mercury burden though the fillings have been removed long time ago, as you probably know. All kinds of detoxification protocols could be harmful/dangerous according to a professor and specialist in GST polymorphisms as the glutathione binding capacity might be lowered. So the five women tested are all aware of this and act very carefully.

In this thread the problem is discussed:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...release-stored-toxins-how-do-we-mop-up.15227/

Without knowing your polymorphisms connected to methylation ability and polymorphisms in the GST genes you take greater risks when trying different supplements and protocols that might start detoxification . I hope the genome studies of 150 PWME´s at Mt Sinai Hospital will give a clue about the situation for PWME´s, at least as a group.

Rich has discussed the problems with polymorphisms in GST genes in some inputs here on PR. I haven´t seen it in a paper or video from him. Maybe in the seminar from Sweden - I should know...

I have found a few of the inputs
http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/www.mecfs-vic.org.au/files/Article-RVK-InfoCoCure.pdf

Rich:

In most cases the oxidative stress is accompanied by a depletion of glutathione, but in a minority of cases,
there is a genetic polymorphism in the glutathione peroxidase enzyme. In those cases, glutathione does not
drop, but the effect is the same, because it cannot be used effectively to counter the oxidative stress without
a functional glutathione peroxidase.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...c-deficiencies-on-recovery.18865/#post-288708
Rich:

In cases of people whose onset involved toxins, I suggest that there may be inherited genetic deficiencies in the detoxication system. These could include polymorphisms in the cytochrome P450 enzymes, or in the glutathione transferase enzymes, for examples.
These show up fairly frequently in the Genovations Detoxigenomic Profiles that I have received from PWMEs. Although estrogens are not considered to be toxins, I have suggested in the past that women who have inherited the combination of polymorphisms in CYP1B1, COMT, and one or more of the GST enzymes are biased toward higher oxidative stress when they are catabolizing the estrogens, due to redox cycling that occurs with this combination, and I have suggested that this accounts for the higher prevalence o ME/CFS in women than in men.

To carry this further, I now suggest that the presence of these genetic deficiencies also hinders the recovery of the people who have them.

There is a lot of research to be done. I wish we didn´t have to be the guinea pigs, except in trials.

Helen

 

[Dreambirdie]

I didn't know Rich had passed until just recently. I was shocked and sad. His formula helped me tremendously and he obviosly cared deeply about helping our community. I've talked and read up on his relationship with other reaserachers who all say the same. I even stumbled upon a doc in the Bay Area (Kunin) who knew him well and held him in high esteem. Rich voluntarily helped me by phone and email with the obvious motive of truly caring about my well being. I will miss him. I never once felt his motivation was other than true care and concern.

I could not take the straight G until I had been on Rich's protocol for several months. At that point I used the Liposomal G.

Hi Tristen--Rich was incredibly generous and kind to our community. I miss him too.

When you say "you could not take the straight G," what do you mean by that?

I found the liposomal G to be ineffective, so I used the transdermal G for a while. Then I developed a rash to the cream, so I got the G nasal spray. I only use it when I have a heavy toxin burden. Do you use G regularly, or just intermittently?

thanks in advance for your response.

 

[roxie60]

Disturbing to see the paper work on Metanx, do know how I missed it the fist time except I was extremely ill and barely able to get out of bed. No excuse. Thanks for posting cause the supplier that seds it to me know does not provide paperwork or I cant recall seeing any. Will be discussing this with my Dr in a week.

Good discussion guys, I never would have thought the Metanx (a vitamin) would maybe contributing to my symps.

 

[roxie60]

not sure I mentioned but Dr just recoed I go on Glutathione patch, I am fearful of taking anything anymore and it looks like the glutathione patch could be worse than the protien shake and Metanx reactions. It seems there is nothing I can take I dont react to, yet I know my body needs support, trying to provide it but comes back to bite me in the ass.

 

[Freddd]

Disturbing to see the paper work on Metanx, do know how I missed it the fist time except I was extremely ill and barely able to get out of bed. No excuse. Thanks for posting cause the supplier that seds it to me know does not provide paperwork or I cant recall seeing any. Will be discussing this with my Dr in a week.

Good discussion guys, I never would have thought the Metanx (a vitamin) would maybe contributing to my symps.

Hi Roxie,

I'm not understanding or maybe not remembering; what problems did you have on Metanx. Or is this in regard to the p5p? Many of the things we talk about here are vitamins and all three of those are usually very helpful vitamins with the other need cofactors.

 

[Tristen]

Hi Tristen--Rich was incredibly generous and kind to our community. I miss him too.

When you say "you could not take the straight G," what do you mean by that?

I found the liposomal G to be ineffective, so I used the transdermal G for a while. Then I developed a rash to the cream, so I got the G nasal spray. I only use it when I have a heavy toxin burden. Do you use G regularly, or just intermittently?

thanks in advance for your response.

No, I haven't taken any Glutathione in any form for over 2 years now. My local GP (who is the only dedicated LLMD locally) is now on the biotoxins issue. She told me there was no point in attempting to clear toxins (as we have done in the past) without first looking into this issue. So we are doing just that.

 

[Lotus97]

I didn't know Rich had passed until just recently. I was shocked and sad. His formula helped me tremendously and he obviosly cared deeply about helping our community. I've talked and read up on his relationship with other reaserachers who all say the same. I even stumbled upon a doc in the Bay Area (Kunin) who knew him well and held him in high esteem. Rich voluntarily helped me by phone and email with the obvious motive of truly caring about my well being. I will miss him. I never once felt his motivation was other than true care and concern.

I could not take the straight G until I had been on Rich's protocol for several months. At that point I used the Liposomal G.

Hi Tristen--Rich was incredibly generous and kind to our community. I miss him too.

When you say "you could not take the straight G," what do you mean by that?

I found the liposomal G to be ineffective, so I used the transdermal G for a while. Then I developed a rash to the cream, so I got the G nasal spray. I only use it when I have a heavy toxin burden. Do you use G regularly, or just intermittently?

thanks in advance for your response.

No, I haven't taken any Glutathione in any form for over 2 years now. My local GP (who is the only dedicated LLMD locally) is now on the biotoxins issue. She told me there was no point in attempting to clear toxins (as we have done in the past) without first looking into this issue. So we are doing just that.

Tristen
Dreambirdie
Since neither of you guys take glutathione regularly (or at all?) anymore you may or may not be interested in this answer. Plus I don't know for sure what the reason is, but Rich has given several reasons why taking glutathione at the beginning of methylation might not be a good idea for some people:
(This is from mid 2012 so it's one of Rich's most recent posts about the subject)

Historically, from about 1999 to 2004, I encouraged PWMEs to try to boost glutathione in various ways. Doing that alone did give some people symptomatic improvements, but they were temporary. Others could not tolerate it, and we did lots of guessing about why. When I caught on to the methylation cycle problem in late 2004 from the autism researchers, I shifted to encouraging PWMEs to boost their methylation cycles and stopped promoting glutathione boosting, and that has worked out better in terms of results.

However, this treatment has been difficult for some people to take, especially initially, and I think that one of the problems is that it probably lowers glutathione even further initially, because more of the homocysteine gets converted to methionine, and less is available to go into making cysteine and glutathione. So I have started suggesting that people might try adding either some liposomal glutathione or some acetylglutathione, because I think they are most able to get glutathione into the cells. I haven't had much feedback on whether this has worked for people or not, and I don't know how many have tried it.

Now, the question you're asking is what about getting a lot of glutathione into the cells while also putting in B12. I don't know how that would work out. One concern I have is that I think it's important not to ramp up the methylation cycle, the B12 function, the folate metabolism, and glutathione too fast in a person who has been ill for an extended time. These things will make major changes to the metabolism, and I think it's best to take it slow enough so that things can adjust as you go. I do think that for one thing, it could mobilize toxins a lot faster than they could be excreted, and that could make a person pretty miserable.

I also think that there could be a problem in recycling the glutathione fast enough when it becomes oxidized in a body that is under a lot of oxidative stress. This could shift the ratio of glutathione to oxidized glutathione too much, and that could affect the biochemical reactions in a big way.

So I don't have a very good answer for you. Don't have experience to go on, and the system is too complicated for me to figure it out on the basis of theory. Sorry about that.

Rich

I was thinking about what Rich said about glutathione being converted into oxidized glutathione and I remembered the methylation study Rich and Dr. Nathan did. They measured the glutathione (GSH) and oxidized glutathione of the participants and the ratio improved significantly over the course of the study
http://www.mecfs-vic.org.au/sites/w...Article-2009VanKonynenburg-TrtMethylStudy.pdf

 

[physicsstudent13]

I'm really glad I started the B12 supplements. my potassium was around 3.0 and I'm having to take 12 99mg tablets of potassium gluconate to lower my heart rate below 100.
I feel extremely foggy and exhausted now after taking a sc bcomplex injection of 2ml and taking potassium and prednisone helps clear the fog I think I may have MS with the blurry vision

 

[ahmo]

@physicsstudent13 There is no set dosage for K+. In addition to the thread you've started, you can put potassium into the search engine, check titles, in the Methylation forum for further info. You can also download from my signature 2 different guides to Freddd's Protocol. The first is an excellent protocol summary. The next a longer doc where you can look up K+ or folate or other of the components and get Fred's comments with links.

 

[physicsstudent13]

I had to take 12 potassium pills a day to lower my heart rate which was at 100, now it's at 85 and more comfortable. I don't know how long it was this low and it's hard for me to start taking powders because of the stigma

how does NAC/glutathione use up b12? I am really foggy and exhausted from sc b12 2ml injections now