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It's kind of tricky because some people do have certain polymorphisms that prevent them from converting folinic to methylfolate which is why Rich recommends both, but he says folinic acid accomplishes certain things that methylfolate can't. Although for methylation, it seems that only methylfolate is necessary.Lotus97 Folinic acid is cheaper and many people can process it OK. Its a simpler and cheaper way to get folate. The trouble is that not everyone can use it properly, so methylfolate is more reliable. I also suspect that there might be a buffering effect. By taking folinic acid there will be a delay in conversion to methyl folate, and this might act a little like having sustained release methyl folate.
Folinic acid is helpful for a couple of reasons. One is that it is very versatile, in that it can be converted to other forms of folate, which are needed to make DNA, RNA, and purines in general. Another factor is that folinic acid is polyglutamated when it is inside the cells, and this can help to lower the amount of free glutamate, which is an excitotoxin. Excitotoxicity is a problem in CFS, and it is often exacerbated when methylation cycle treatment is entered upon.
It's kind of tricky because some people do have certain polymorphisms that prevent them from converting folinic to methylfolate which is why Rich recommends both, but he says folinic acid accomplishes certain things that methylfolate can't. Although for methylation, it seems that only methylfolate is necessary.
Folinic acid is helpful for a couple of reasons. One is that it is very versatile, in that it can be converted to other forms of folate, which are needed to make DNA, RNA, and purines in general. Another factor is that folinic acid is polyglutamated when it is inside the cells, and this can help to lower the amount of free glutamate, which is an excitotoxin. Excitotoxicity is a problem in CFS, and it is often exacerbated when methylation cycle treatment is entered upon.
alex3619
That is interesting what you say about folinic acid being like a timed release methylfolate since methylfolate is needed to recycle B12. Taking both could potentially increase the length of time methylfolate and B12 stay in your system. Of course that's assuming one can make the conversion. Rich seemed to think most people could although Freddd seems to disagree. I know Yasko did a lot of SNP testing, but that was only on autistic children so I'm not sure how much data we actually have on this. In that study Dannybex posted it seems like most people are able to process it, but I haven't looked to closely at the study.
Dreambirdie
I have a Thorne b complex with 100 mcg of folinic acid and 100 mcg methylfolate. I also get at least 300 mcg of plant folate which some people have said is similar to folinic acid although Rich seemed to think there was both methylfolate and folinic acid in plant folate (?)
If methylfolate performs all the functions of methylfolate then why would Rich have people take both folinic acid and methylfolate?
Rich's most recent protocol is only about 5 months old and he still recommends both folinic acid and methylfolate. As I mentioned earlier he says that folinic performs specific functions that methylfolate does not. This is what Rich has said:Hi Lotus,
He started suggesting folinic years before l-methylfolate was available, as the only superior to folic acid form available.
Have you considered getting your SNP tested so we can figure out how many people in this community have the same issues? The study dannybex referenced seems to suggest that folinic acid had a positive effect on the vast majority of participants who had all been diagnosed with CFS.That's why I tried it and plunged into folate insufficiency worse than ever. It took 3 days to build up and it got so bad in a week I went back to folic acid.
Rich's most recent protocol is only about 5 months old and he still recommends both folinic acid and methylfolate. As I mentioned earlier he says that folinic performs specific functions that methylfolate does not. This is what Rich has said:
Folinic acid is helpful for a couple of reasons. One is that it is very versatile, in that it can be converted to other forms of folate, which are needed to make DNA, RNA, and purines in general. Another factor is that folinic acid is polyglutamated when it is inside the cells, and this can help to lower the amount of free glutamate, which is an excitotoxin. Excitotoxicity is a problem in CFS, and it is often exacerbated when methylation cycle treatment is entered upon.
The article dannybex referenced also mentions some other functions of folinic acid
Folinic acid co-enzymes are responsible for several important metabolic functions. These include the formation of DNA and RNA, the formation of heme protein in hemoglobin, formation of amino acids and the formation of glutathione
Have you considered getting your SNP tested so we can figure out how many people in this community have the same issues? The study dannybex referenced seems to suggest that folinic acid had a positive effect on the vast majority of participants who had all been diagnosed with CFS.
It's only after healing started that my folate deficiency symptoms got worse while everything else got better. I'm glad to have gained understanding because the paradoxical folate deficiency is the missing understadninbg and can happen to anybody who has a strongg healing startup. Insufficiency symptoms start at a tiny amount less than needed in the moment, and grow very severe with severe insufficiency even to death. It is a smoothly dose proportionate situation unlike MeCBL and AdoCbl.
I know he revised it. then. He still had the same fundamentals underlying his understandings. I finally understood the source of some of his misunderstandings, that the neurons in the brain were dependent upon glucose metabolism not fatty acid Krebs cycle metabolism which requires AdoCbl and LCF.
I don't know about "ATP startup" specifically, but Rich was well aware of mitochondrial dysfunction being a big part of this. His protocol did address that issue. Why he didn't focus more on Krebs and ATP might be explained in his goals listed for the protocol:So ATP startup in the brain, completely unsuspected by Rich, is thereby interpeted as any numbers of other things but NEVER ATP startup. That was an impossible answer in his mind prior to the discussion maybe a year ago and he never showed any expressed difference that I am aware of. That changes how things are interpreted. When the assumptions are wrong the inerpretations are wrong.
Interesting. I also find that I can do with the B12 in my Thorne Basic B and don't need additional sublinguals, at least not during allergy season. I have so much trouble keeping my zinc, and therefore stomach acid levels, up during allergy season that I am thinking of adding a mB12 sublingual to my allergy-season-only protocol.That's why I posted it in the methylation section.
I found this study 2-3 months after starting folinic, based on the results from Jill Jame's study with autistic kids. It's helped me considerably (along with a small dose of methylfolate), plus TMG and small doses of mb-12 and ad-b12, but don't need the b12's every day.
Thanks Caledonia.
OMG! I WILL have to look this up because I take 2g C with my mfolate! But I read that C + mfolate -> raise BH4 and I have BH4 issues. The damn BH4 test is $300 so I can't test BH4 and then try while separating mfolate from C. I have not had a single BH4 test yet, but my father had no detectable BH4 in him when he died so now I have a burning need to know how my BH4 is doing. It may be that if I could measure and thus control BH4 to correct it that I would become unstable tho as I am pretty sure it is the BH4 deficiency preventing me from sensitivity to methyls in rgeards to my two COMT +/+.I don't know about folinic acid. but vitamin C co-administered destabilizes L-5mthf in the gut. The time window is about 20-30 minutes. So it is easy to hold off on that orange juice or vitamin C tablet. I ironically discovered this the hard way and then verified it on the Internet. Ironically my Mom who I got to take FolaPro some time ago was taking it with 1 gram of vitamin C every day. When she learned from me about the vitamin C issues, she initially just nonchalantly shifted the vitamin C to the afternoon .... and within a day or two basically flipped out since suddenly she was absorbing much more.
You can find discussions of this on other forums including mthfr.net. There was a research paper talking about this that I read once, but my bookmarks folder is so huge and disorganized that it might as well be buried in the Triassic period, sorry.
OMG! I WILL have to look this up because I take 2g C with my mfolate! But I read that C + mfolate -> raise BH4 and I have BH4 issues. The damn BH4 test is $300 so I can't test BH4 and then try while separating mfolate from C. I have not had a single BH4 test yet, but my father had no detectable BH4 in him when he died so now I have a burning need to know how my BH4 is doing. It may be that if I could measure and thus control BH4 to correct it that I would become unstable tho as I am pretty sure it is the BH4 deficiency preventing me from sensitivity to methyls in rgeards to my two COMT +/+.
But let's rationalize this...I achieved a perfect Hcy of 6.3 even taking 800 mcg metafolin plus 2g mineral ascorbates at the same time. So...now I find it hard to see why I should change? I hit the target, so...?
This is interesting. Thanks for your posts about it, Lotus.
I'd like to know what brand and what dose of folinic people take?
Folinic acid was found to be beneficial in 81% of CFS patients in this trial:
http://www.natural-holistic-health.com/cd19-blood-test-and-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/
Here's the PDF of that study:
http://www.ncf-net.org/pdf/UckunCFSCD19.pdf
Also, interesting to note the mention of a(nother) possible biomarker..."94% of the patients had 'marked depletion of their CD19 IgM mature B lymphocyte population."
Dan
That's the brand I bought, but I haven't started taking it yet as I'm not ready to up my folate dosage yet. I think it's the best-priced folinic out there. It's hard to split up though if you want to take less than 800 mcg. I found an exacto knife works reasonably well.The brand my specialist told me to get and Im on is Source Naturals .. MegaFolinic (800mcg per day thou I think my specialist wants me to increase my dose).