Can The Methyl Folate Trap and DHFR Cause Strong Reaction From Taking Methylfolate?

[Xara]

So let me see if I got this straight.

If someone were to say take only 400-800 mcg of methylfolate (and maybe to make things worse at the same time eat a couple hundred micrograms of vegetable folate a day) but take a dose of say 5000-10000 mcg of 5 star sublingual mb12 they will in fact probably burn through their methylfolate rapidly and end up with a donut hole methyfolate insufficiency but also get hit with the high need for potassium?

On the other hand if they take high doses of methylfolate and say get only a 100 mcg of mb12 absorbed they run a high risk of a methyl trap?

So if someone is kind of near a balance point between the too, but wants to increase they are better off raising both mb12 and methylfolate together (provided there is enough ATP via LCF and adb12 to go along for the ride)?

I think the donut hole was that there was enough methylfolate to start the healing (thus the need for potassium) but not enough for maintaining it. Ergo: one has to give lots of methylfolate (then the hole closes).

But one can not give lots of methylfolate when there's not enough mB12, because then the methylfolate will flush out of the cells, giving methylfolate deficiency symptoms. One needs to increase the mB12.

When you do not give enough mB12, you'll see b12 deficiency symptoms. As soon as all the mB12 is used up you get again methylfolate to flush out of the cells and you'll see the methylfolate deficiency symptoms again.

So I'd say yes, you have to (try to) balance them and raise them both if you don't want to get trapped in a donut

Well, at least that's how I perceived it.

 

[dbkita]

I think the donut hole was that there was enough methylfolate to start the healing (thus the need for potassium) but not enough for maintaining it. Ergo: one has to give lots of methylfolate (then the hole closes).

But one can not give lots of methylfolate when there's not enough mB12, because then the methylfolate will flush out of the cells, giving methylfolate deficiency symptoms. One needs to increase the mB12.

When you do not give enough mB12, you'll see b12 deficiency symptoms. As soon as all the mB12 is used up you get again methylfolate to flush out of the cells and you'll see the methylfolate deficiency symptoms again.

So I'd say yes, you have to (try to) balance them and raise them both if you don't want to get trapped in a donut

Well, at least that's how I perceived it.

You sound like you are doing better Xara. I am happy for you Keep it up!

 

[Lotus97]

So I'd say yes, you have to (try to) balance them and raise them both if you don't want to get trapped in a donut

That makes me hungry just thinking about it

 

[Xara]

You sound like you are doing better Xara. I am happy for you Keep it up!

Hahaha. I'm starting to look forward to Thursday when I'll raise once again mB12 and methylfolate: what will happen, will I be able to understand even Stephen Hawkins?

 

[Freddd]

So let me see if I got this straight.

If someone were to say take only 400-800 mcg of methylfolate (and maybe to make things worse at the same time eat a couple hundred micrograms of vegetable folate a day) but take a dose of say 5000-10000 mcg of 5 star sublingual mb12 they will in fact probably burn through their methylfolate rapidly and end up with a donut hole methyfolate insufficiency but also get hit with the high need for potassium?

On the other hand if they take high doses of methylfolate and say get only a 100 mcg of mb12 absorbed they run a high risk of a methyl trap?

So if someone is kind of near a balance point between the too, but wants to increase they are better off raising both mb12 and methylfolate together (provided there is enough ATP via LCF and adb12 to go along for the ride)?

Hi Dbkita,

First I like to check to see if people have a history that indicate a likely prooblem with veggie folate but NEVER trust that somebody can use any folate but l-methylfolate until healing has started and been stabilized. I would expect that 100mcg absorbed mixed AdoCbl/MeCbl with 800mcg of l-methylfolate to bring a person out of methyltrap in a few hours with symptoms relieving daily and into possible donut hole folate insufficiency over the next 3 or 4 day at which some relatively less intense folate insufficiency symptoms are present but is a HUGE improvment overall, until the low potassium hits.

On the other hand if they take high doses of methylfolate and say get only a 100 mcg of mb12 absorbed they run a high risk of a methyl trap?
If they take HyCbl that can only deliver at best 10-20mcg in the active distribution system, less if they have absorption problems, it isn't enough to get out of methyltrap. Microtitration of MeCbl at 10 or 20mcg absorbed, won't do it either. If it is a combined partial ATP blockage and methyltrap, one needs to break both or the dependencies can't resolve. 100mcg daily of combined active cobalamins absorbed and in diffusion mode distribution, methyltrap will likely resolve in 1 hour. 1000mcg absorbed (5,000 nominal sublingual) will make sure of it and may not make any noticable difference. I don't know of any dose of l-methylfolate that outruns 100mcg of MeCbl. Beyond that first 100mcg it is relatively minor differences from sort of a depth of penetration in the first hour by 100mcg to the first 3 hours by 1000mcg. Sometimes it take LCF to break the logjam, about 5% of the time. If it is really close to low LCF that will break it at LCF before it really gets going, at the first stress.

It is the lack of ability to know what is happening with HyCbl because it can't deliver a decisive dose of active b12s most of the time for most people. It has a lot more failure modes. MeCbl and AdoCbl have fewer failure modes so it is easier to figure out. Same goes with folates. Donut hole and paradoxical folate insufficiency can coexist with folic acid, folinic acid and veggie folate in at least some people. With L-methylfolate all one gets is donut hole, of which I'm aware

If they only

 

[Freddd]

That makes me hungry just thinking about it

That was kind of my expereince. I went from almost continuous nausea to hungry. The hungry phase lasted until about a year ago. I noticed when it turned off and when it had turned on. Strange experience. I was hungry for about 4 years post LCF.

 

[dbkita]

Hi Dbkita,


On the other hand if they take high doses of methylfolate and say get only a 100 mcg of mb12 absorbed they run a high risk of a methyl trap?
100mcg daily of combined active cobalamins absorbed and in diffusion mode distribution, methyltrap will likely resolve in 1 hour. 1000mcg absorbed (5,000 nominal sublingual) will make sure of it and may not make any noticable difference. I don't know of any dose of l-methylfolate that outruns 100mcg of MeCbl. Beyond that first 100mcg it is relatively minor differences from sort of a depth of penetration in the first hour by 100mcg to the first 3 hours by 1000mcg. Sometimes it take LCF to break the logjam, about 5% of the time. If it is really close to low LCF that will break it at LCF before it really gets going, at the first stress.

That was very useful thank you.

I did not realize that 100-1000 mcg absorbed B12s were so resilient to methylfolate increases. That gives me some confidence that my 2500-3000 Enzymatic Therapy and 2500 mcg adb12 SN (I did btw order Anabol Naturals to experiment) is up to handling some methyfolate increases, though maybe I would be better splitting it into multiple doses. So the higher doses of B12s are more about CNS penetration is that correct?

Still seems like a partial ATP block is a battleground for me, since I see fluctuations in how good I feel (energy. mood) which are not accounted for by my b12 and methyfolate doses or even methylation cofactors alone (since those dosinga have been constant). I do get some veggie folates daily (no folic acid) but only about net 200 mcg a day (assuming 50% bioavailability). My diet is very meat and nut heavy.

 

[Xara]

I did not realize that 100-1000 mcg absorbed B12s were so resilient to methylfolate increases. That gives me some confidence that my 2500-3000 Enzymatic Therapy and 2500 mcg adb12 SN (I did btw order Anabol Naturals to experiment) is up to handling some methyfolate increases, though maybe I would be better splitting it into multiple doses. So the higher doses of B12s are more about CNS penetration is that correct?

Hi dbkita,

The way I see it (talking about mB12 only, haven't really gotten into aB12):
MB12 has a short half life, IIRC, it leaves the body quickly. So if you want to make sure the deeper tissues are reached, you have to take a higher dose of mB12 at the same time, and preferably repeat that several times during the day. Then you have a constant flow of more than enough mB12 that is able to reach even the inner cores of the CNS.

Still seems like a partial ATP block is a battleground for me, since I see fluctuations in how good I feel (energy. mood) which are not accounted for by my b12 and methyfolate doses or even methylation cofactors alone (since those dosinga have been constant). I do get some veggie folates daily (no folic acid) but only about net 200 mcg a day (assuming 50% bioavailability). My diet is very meat and nut heavy.

When do you have your nuts? Nuts contain phytates and oxalates which both react with several minerals. Perhaps you fluctuate in useable minerals? I myself take nuts in the evening as a snack, two hours away from everything else that matters.

Anyway, just some thoughts of mine, maybe they help.

 

[Freddd]

That was very useful thank you.

I did not realize that 100-1000 mcg absorbed B12s were so resilient to methylfolate increases. That gives me some confidence that my 2500-3000 Enzymatic Therapy and 2500 mcg adb12 SN (I did btw order Anabol Naturals to experiment) is up to handling some methyfolate increases, though maybe I would be better splitting it into multiple doses. So the higher doses of B12s are more about CNS penetration is that correct?

Still seems like a partial ATP block is a battleground for me, since I see fluctuations in how good I feel (energy. mood) which are not accounted for by my b12 and methyfolate doses or even methylation cofactors alone (since those dosinga have been constant). I do get some veggie folates daily (no folic acid) but only about net 200 mcg a day (assuming 50% bioavailability). My diet is very meat and nut heavy.

Hi Dbkita,

I confess I like fresh veggies much better than I should. Something I always look forward to are the feasts from the garden. I have to be careful not to have a big salad and a couple of other things, like chard or squash. We have been trying to get some chestnut trees growing but our soil is way too alkaline so far.

Very roughly this is what I have found on absorbed doses linked with estimated serum peak. In two hours after the last of the sublingual, the serum peak is down to about 1/8 or less of what it was at peak

100mcg - serum peak 10,000-20,000pg/ml general body healing about 80%

1000mcg - serum peak, 100,000-200,000pg/ml deep body healing, peripheral neuropathy, has CNS penetrating level for perhaps 1 hour

10,000mcg - serum peak, 1,000,000-2,000,000pg/ml, deep body healing, has deep CNS penetrating level for perhaps 6-8 hours. This is a typical result of a 50mg sublingual dose.

10,000mcg subcutaneous injection 3x per day, with average 1.25mg per hour entering circulation serum peak is maintained in the 100,000-200,000pg/ml 24/7 with DEEP CNS penetration levels 24/7, provides maximum CNS healing, dependent upon QUALITATIVE considerations of MeCbl.

AdoCbl in circulation has the same distribution and serum halflife characteristics as MeCbl which applies to inflammation. Once it is in the mitochondria it is there for the life of each mitochondrion or so it would appear.

 

[Lotus97]

Is it necessary to completely eliminate folic acid? Isn't only when you take high dosages that it causes problems?

 

[Freddd]

Is it necessary to completely eliminate folic acid? Isn't only when you take high dosages that it causes problems?

I don't know. Some people appear to have no trouble. Others have a problem from first dose of folic acid. Let's consider any number of people I know who don't have any assortment of symptoms sufficient to suggest any methylation problems or ATP problems. When they take basically any quantities of any or all of the Deadlock Quartet, they have no responses at all. They have no startup response. They have no donut hole paradoxical folate insufficiency/deficiency, no change of potassium needs.

I suspect that those who have had paradoxical folate deficiency/insufficiency since childhood will have more problems with folic acid than those that don't. It did get worse for me when I had a dose accumulation effect with 2x400mcg a day from b-complex, plus 200mcg in each Country Life Dibencozide, plus additional folic acid in additional supplements, hidden doses, and while flour products, hidden doses, and energy drinks, and vitamin processed foods breakfast cereals, and Ensure and Instant breakfast and so on.

For that reason and because I know of no other way of elliminating the possibility, and a lot of uncertainty in what is going on, get healing established with all onset induced deficiencies handled and then try folic acid for a month, then go back to l-methylfolate. Doing two or three switch rounds will tell you if there is a difference and what kind with no doubts about it.

The biggest problem for folic acid sensitive people might be in those in whom it is additive with folinic acid and veggie folate. That is just a conjecture. I have noticed distinctive banding in l-methylfolate titration endpoint dosages. These may nbot be accurate. They are dependent on at least 4 doses per day. Because of short serum half life frequency matters. At twice a day dosing , twice the total daily dose may be needed.

1. No l-methylfolate needed
2. Noticable benefit, no insufficiency except brief donut hole, symptoms, 2400-4000mcg
3. Folic acid only problems, 6000-8000mcg
4. Folic, folinic, veggie problems 12,000-18,000 (Deplin 15,000 mcg)

 

[dbkita]

Hi dbkita,

The way I see it (talking about mB12 only, haven't really gotten into aB12):
MB12 has a short half life, IIRC, it leaves the body quickly. So if you want to make sure the deeper tissues are reached, you have to take a higher dose of mB12 at the same time, and preferably repeat that several times during the day. Then you have a constant flow of more than enough mB12 that is able to reach even the inner cores of the CNS.


When do you have your nuts? Nuts contain phytates and oxalates which both react with several minerals. Perhaps you fluctuate in useable minerals? I myself take nuts in the evening as a snack, two hours away from everything else that matters.

Anyway, just some thoughts of mine, maybe they help.

Thanks for the info Xara.

You are right nuts are quite high in phytates (did not realize that).

But minerals like calcium and iron aren't a problem with my diet and supplementation (knock on wood). I get 1700 mg of Mg a day (Mg RBC dead on center), 1500 mg of Ca a day (serum levels high normal). Iron serum is high-normal to high and ferritin is about optimal (finally after years of trying to stabilize it). Zinc serum levels are high normal.

So in theory yes they could cause problems but I guess I am compensating for it. I also eat zero legumes or grains. Bigger concern might be the enzyme inhibitors. Hmmmm

Now what it does to my gut is another issue, but I do very poorly on any starches. And to stave off weight loss I consume 3500-4000 calories a day. About 800 calories of that is nuts throughout the day. Maybe 2000 is from direct protein sources. The other 800-1000 is from vegetables, fruit, and coconut products(i.e. carb type).

Maybe I should check out about soaking the nuts. I have heard though that also drains not only the phytic acid but the enzymes inhibitors. Seems like such a pain though. Sigh other alternative is to lower intake but then I am going to have trouble getting enough calories. Gah!

 

[sregan]

When the MeCbl is not where it is needed in the cell then methylfolate is flushed from the cell and the process breaks for lack of methylb12, not MeCbl (methylfolate here?), give merthylfolate deficiency symptoms. Then a little bit of effective MeCbl cause b12 deficiency symptoms when the process no longer breaks at the methylfolte. This appears very contrratictory, paradoxical in fact, and confuses most everybody.

I had to read this a few times... Should be saying the process breaks for lack of MeCbl not methylfolate right??