I have CBS and need help with a low sulfur diet

[caledonia]

Yes, I am very sensitive to chemicals. Some make me want to crawl out of my skin and so that I cannot stand to be touched. And it is hard for me to keep numbness/neuropathy at bay (like arms getting numb from raising them to drive).

Based on what you reported supplementing and those symptoms, you still sound very deficient in B12 and are not producing much glutathione.

If you take too much methylfolate relative to B12 you will cause methyl trapping which will stop the methylation cycle. Unless you're taking the B12 sublingually or via injection, only about 2% will absorb via an oral route into the stomach.

 

[triffid113]

Based on what you reported supplementing and those symptoms, you still sound very deficient in B12 and are not producing much glutathione.

If you take too much methylfolate relative to B12 you will cause methyl trapping which will stop the methylation cycle. Unless you're taking the B12 sublingually or via injection, only about 2% will absorb via an oral route into the stomach.

I do consider from time to time if I need more mb12, but I have chemical sensitivities whether or not I take mB12. I have always avoided chemicals. I have never had a glutathione test but I think it would be of benefit if I knew where to get one because I make lots of taurine and doesn't that mean less glutathione? I do not believe mb12 will affect that for me but I think tha could be an artifact of my cbs +/+ genes and possibly something downstream would help. I am supposed to take something...serine? I don't know what that does. To me the difference between night and day, nonfunctional and functional, is DHEA. I mean I can feel it work in 15 minutes. By comparison all the methylation supplements I take have a very small impact that I can feel. Not to belittle them for they prevent cancer. methylated estrogen is being patented as a cancer cure. One of my friends who started bio identical hormone replacement same timeas I did already got cancer but I have not and I count adequate methylation high on my list of reasons why not.

 

[Ripley]

Well...I agree with greenshots about acid/alkaline balance. I read there is a 200% greater risk in a wide variety of cancers due to meat consumption as shown in the 20 year Adventist Study of 7th day adventists, 50% of whom are vegan.

I wouldn't put much weight behind a single study like that. Association does not equal causation. For instance, a "vegan" might be more health conscious than an omnivore. That doesn't necessarily make meat more dangerous, per se. But, it can certainly skew the results in ways you might not realize (i.e health conscious vegans might smoke less, or eat less fried food, or eat less sugar).

And it's worth noting that Adventists had higher incidences of other cancers than the general population. They had more Hodgkins disease (131%), more brain cancer (118%), more malignant melanoma (171%), more uterine cancer (191%), more cervical cancer (180%) and more ovarian cancer (129%) on average. (Source: Mills PF and others. Cancer incidence among California Seventh-Day Adventists, 1976-1982. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 1994, Vol 59 (Supplement), Pages 1136S-1142S). So either their diets caused lots of cancer, or there were other lifestyle factors involved.

Don't be swayed by misleading headlines from flawed studies.

 

[triffid113]

I think you are thinking that I don't make enough sulfates or something but that is not true for then I would have trouble with phenols and I don't. I have trouble with anything that bocks androgens or mucks with hormones because the hormones are the only way that works for me to get around my genes. A lot of chemicals do muck up your hormones.

And look at this picture! ethanol and acetaldehyde apparently muck up EVERYONE'S methyation! http://www.nature.com/nrc/journal/v7/n8/fig_tab/nrc2191_F4.html

Here is a pixture of the creation of glutathione vs. taurine and as you can see it is way past any mB12. I do not know what makes the biochem take one path vs. the other down here: http://ajpheart.physiology.org/content/287/1/H1.full

Huh. Yasko says high cysteine leads to production of taurine and low cysteine leads to production of glutathione. But I supplement cysteine (and thus have high cysteine) and I do not intend to stop as cysteine causes me to make the right hormones out of DHEA and keeps cancer away and my doctors happy with me. She says curcumin helps to make glutathione. So another plug for curcumin. I have never tried it in a big way...it interferes with P450 pathway CYP1A2. Which is the one mucked up by cigarette smoke, but I also thought had something to do with brassica vegetables and estrogen clearance? So might counteract my broccoli pill, muck up my hormones? So confusing. And yes with CBS I do have high taurine but not hugely high (and I supplement high cysteine but not hugely high) and despite what she says I am not at all sensitive to DHEA (except in a good way) and my homocysteine untreated is high not low.

I had typed up some interesting info regarding CYP1A2 and what up and down regualtes it, but I fat fingered (Sorry) and don't feel like retyping right now.
However look at this study which shows a LOT of medicines interfere with androgens (specifically testosterone): http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/316/1/336.full.pdf

Triff

 

[triffid113]

Meta

Don't be swayed by misleading headlines from flawed studies.

Excuse me - you have not looked at the study to make any such statement that it is flawed.

Meat is a concentrated food source...the animals eat the poisons we spray on plants...but let us not forget that we feed rendered products to our livestock, which include ground up dogs with flea collars ON THEM, dead cows with metals tags in their ears (not removed), expired meat at the supermarket WITH the styrofoam, and when the animal is killed it is tested for high heavy metals and if it has that then it is turned into animal feed. But there should be NONE of that in the food supply and who decides what is "high"?

I am sure there are other studies to support that one but it does not interest me as much as other things right now. It was a 20 year bazillion dollar study run by the U.S. Govt (not by anyone with a vegetarian axe to grind). Aside from the "concentrator of pesticide" effect of meat, there is also the fact that its byproduct is ammonia, a very toxic substance purported to lead to colon cancer. So there is a lot of "common sense" there that is obvious to me if not to you.

 

[triffid113]

Huh, here's another pharma list - note that testosteroe is a substrate and a CYP3A4 inducer will diminish testoeterone. Looks like their list of CYP3A4 innducers is mercifully short. I wondre if this list is complete...
http://www.pharmacytimes.com/publications/issue/2008/2008-09/2008-09-8687

 

[caledonia]

I do consider from time to time if I need more mb12, but I have chemical sensitivities whether or not I take mB12. I do not believe mb12 will affect that for me but I think tha could be an artifact of my cbs +/+ genes and possibly something downstream would help. By comparison all the methylation supplements I take have a very small impact that I can feel.

Try this - get a bottle of Douglas Labs liquid methylcobalamin. It's not that expensive. Take one drop (or if you're really brave a whole dropperful (1000mcg), but I don't recommend it). Hold it under your tongue for 30 seconds to allow it to absorb.

Either it will make you feel better, or if your CBS is activated, you will feel excitotoxicity/fight or flight (stressed, wired, nervous, etc.) It might take a few hours or days to kick in.

I was making the same mistake you are. B12 in a pill form - nothing. Sublingual B12 - bam!

I don't think you have to measure anything. Your symptoms are telltale enough, and serum B12 isn't really reliable anyway.

=-=-=-==-=-=-
Ok, how does B12 help you make glutathione? B12 doesn't make it directly but it's at the start of a chain of things that make it. So first you have methylfolate, then you have methylcobalamin. These work together synergistically to make methyl groups. These convert into methionine, then SAMe, which gives up methyl groups to help with DNA regulation and hundreds of other very important jobs. If this part was working correctly you wouldn't need the DHEA. Then homocysteine is created. This is at the top of the transsulfuration pathway where CBS is.

If this pathway is working correctly, then you'll make some taurine, but more glutathione. At this point, your chemical sensitivities should start to get better.

So what you're doing is taking all these things farther along the cycle (needed because your cycle is not working correctly), but missing the really big one at the begining of the cycle (the B12). If you start taking some sublingual or injected B12, your need for the DHEA, cysteine, etc. should diminish, and your chemical sensitivities should get better.

ps. you also might want to back off at least somewhat on the methylfolate until you get handle on the B12. You should be taking more B12 than methylfolate to avoid methyl trapping. The methyl trapping will stop methylation - the opposite of what you want.

 

[Ripley]

Meat is a concentrated food source...the animals eat the poisons we spray on plants...but let us not forget that we feed rendered products to our livestock, which include ground up dogs with flea collars ON THEM, dead cows with metals tags in their ears (not removed), expired meat at the supermarket WITH the styrofoam, and when the animal is killed it is tested for high heavy metals and if it has that then it is turned into animal feed. But there should be NONE of that in the food supply and who decides what is "high"?

I agree. So, don't eat factory farmed meat.

Aside from the "concentrator of pesticide" effect of meat, there is also the fact that its byproduct is ammonia, a very toxic substance purported to lead to colon cancer. So there is a lot of "common sense" there that is obvious to me if not to you.

Vegetarians exaggerate this toxicity. A healthy individual easily converts ammonia into harmless urea. Humans have been doing it for millions of years. But, yes, I can see how someone with CBS issues and too much ammonia could have difficulty with that. However, to say that everyone needs to stop eating meat because of ammonia is unfounded.

 

[triffid113]

I don't think we with enzyme issues have a corner on these disease states. There are many things that inhibit or stop the methyl cycle besides genetic defects such as CBS. Inflammation/ROS inhibits methylation. Blood sugar destroys BH4, which is required to eliminate ammonia. Etc. Too much meat causes ammonia which strips off the magnesium from the NMDA receptors to cause glutamate toxicity, regardless of your enzyme status. A Brittish scientist believes that this is the essence of mad cow disease...that it is glutamate toxicity caused by feeding cows too much protein. I am sorry but methylation issues are rampant as one ages despite genetics...

But I did never say to stop eating meat. I believe I only said something about "too much".
I have no interest in further pursuing this line of discussion. It makes no difference to me if you are wrong.

 

[kyluv4me]

Maybe you guys could pop by my new thread? I would appreciate it! I need some info.

 

[Ripley]

Nah. We're done. The level of meat a healthy individual would have to eat to induce ammonia toxicity way higher than even my tolerance for meat.

 

[Ripley]

That does sound like overmethylation, especially if the niacin helped cut it back down.

800mcg methylfolate and 1000mcg methylcobalamin would be amounts used by sick people to get better. You would be more in maintenance or preventive mode.

If you knew how to do self muscle testing, you could probably nail a number right away, without taking anything. But barring that, you have to do trial and error. So you can cut the amount in half and retry that. If you run into problems, stop, take niacin and let everything clear out. Then retry again, cuttin to 1/4 of the original amount. If that fails, cut to 1/8 and so on.

Had my homocysteine tested a few weeks ago and it came back as "7", which I guess is normal. And I am seeing a practitioner who specializes in methylation in a few weeks.

Anyway, I took a few weeks off of methylfolate and methylcobalamin after my first overmethylation experience. But, I accidentally overmethylated again when I tried half the methylfolate/methylcobalamin dose (totally my mistake, as I overlooked a B-complex I had taken the day before I tried half the amount of methylfolate/methylcobalamin). So, I took niacin (as nicontinic acid) to back me down. I thought that was the end of it...

But, this time I noticed that I keep getting panic attacks even though it's been five days since I last ingested the methylfolate/methylcobalamin. I think it's from eating too much sulfur/thiols before, during and after overmethylating — even though I've always felt great eating those foods (at least when not taking methylfolate/methylcobalamin).

Does that sound right? From what I'm gathering here, it sounds like overmethylation specifically causes a CBS ++ individual to become especially sulfur sensitive — at least temporarily. And maybe, a high sulfur/thiol diet causes a CBS++ to become especially sensitive to overmethylation. Does that sound right?

Part of me wishes I never touched methylfolate/methylcobalamin to begin with. I can't believe there isn't a warning on those bottles!

VDR Taq ++, MAO A R297R +, MTHFR C677T ++, BHMT-08 ++, CBS C699T ++
VDR Bsm +-, ACAT1-02 +-, MTRR A66G +-. BHMT-02 +-, BHMT-04 +-, AHCY-01 +-, AHCY-02 +-, AHCY-19 +-, NOS3 D298E +-

 

[caledonia]

I would keep trying niacin to see if you can calm the anxiety. Once you get methylation started, it can go for awhile (days).

So it sounds like your CBS SNP may be expressed (activated), but it only shows up with symptoms when you take methyl supplements i.e. get more than what's in your normal diet. So basically what you said.

There still may be a supplement level that you can tolerate, but it's going to be lower. This is why I hate trial and error and do muscle testing anymore.

 

[caledonia]

I'm looking at your SNPs again and it looks like you have a lot more need for methylfolate than you do for methylB12. Once you get everything straightened out, you might be ok with just taking the B complex (it's better to take things as a complex anyway so you don't get out of balance).

I'm assuming the B complex has methylfolate in it. The B12 in the complex, since it's going the oral route, will only absorb about 2%, but the methyl folate will absorb fine, making it a ratio more in line with your SNPs.

The liquid/sublingual methyl B12 might be the thing overdriving your methylation.

 

[Ripley]

Thank you for the tips. I'm a complete newbie with these polymorphisms, but is it the MTHR that made you suspect that I need more methylfolate? What I don't fully understand is whether real folate from food (not folic acid) is adequate or not. I mean, I was somehow surviving my entire life without taking any synthetic methyfolate. I have to assume that getting folate from foods was actually used by my body all this time, no.?

My homocysteine was "7.8" — though it was measured 4 days after my first overmethylation experience, which makes me wonder if overmethylation could have made my homocysteine appear normal. So confusing.

Your comments about the B Complex makes some sense to me. I may just take it once a week after I see the methylation specialist — depending on what he says. Thank you again for your help.

 

[triffid113]

I want to add a note on anxiety/panic. This is caused when your DHEA is low compared to your cortisol. There is a 10:1 ratio in healthy young people. As you age your DHEA falls but your cortisol does not, which means you can tolerate less stress (cortisol=stress) and less caffeine(2 cups raise cortisol 33%). I supplement DHEA for this reason and have no problem with panic/anxiety. However before I supplemented I used to get panic attacks 1 day/month and after menopause it was neverending. 15 minutes of DHEA cleared it right up. I went from not being able to tolerate coffee AT ALL to as much as I want (1-3 c/day). I have the following genetic defects:

Homozygous:
COMT V158M +/+
COMT H62H +/+
ACE Del16 +/+
MTRR A66G +/+
BHMT 1 +/+
CBS C699T +/+

12 Heterozygous:
VDR Taq +/-
VDR Fok +/-
MAO A R297R +/-
MTHFR A1298C +/-
MTRR 11 +/-
BHMT 8 +/-
AHCY 1 +/-
AHCY 2 +/-
AHCY 19 +/-
CBS A360A +/-
SHMT C1420T +/-
NOS D298E +/-

I cannot tolerate niacin...100mg used to make me feel like a voodoo doll stuck with pins all day, but now it makes me numb (which I take to mean I am intolerant, my liver can't handle it). I am on twice as many supplements now as when I was a kid and no doubt some of them keep my liver busy to the max.

 

[Dreambirdie]

triffid113 How much DHEA do you take? I take up to 25 mg/day, but only the 7KetoDHEA. I can't tolerate the regular DHEA at all. It revs me up and makes me anxious... weird, eh?

 

[Ripley]

So, I've been having a lot of trouble overmethlating on and off for the past two weeks ever since taking my last methylfolate and B12. It's been pretty awful. I (stupidly) had the impression that one could simply stop overmethylating by taking niacin to absorb the excess methyl. However, I came across this:

http://mthfr.net/taking-folate-and-feeling-badly-methylation-requires-balance/2011/11/15/

And I think this is my problem. I've been so focussed on reducing free sulfur thiols that I totally overlooked reducing methionine to stop overmethylating. If I eat any high-methionine food, I overmethylate within an hour or two. Does that sound right? Do I just need to stop eating high-methionine foods (and continue taking niacin) to stop overmethylating? Incidentally, I tested with a sulfate strip yesterday and it said I was >400 (but not greater than 800).

Please help. I just want to stop the panic attacks and I think it's just related to overmethylation (as I never had panic attacks before overmethylating). This has been a painful past few days. Thanks so much.

VDR Taq ++, MAO A R297R +, MTHFR C677T ++, BHMT-08 ++, CBS C699T ++
VDR Bsm +-, ACAT1-02 +-, MTRR A66G +-. BHMT-02 +-, BHMT-04 +-, AHCY-01 +-, AHCY-02 +-, AHCY-19 +-, NOS3 D298E +-

 

[Dreambirdie]

Sorry Ripley, to hear this. It sounds awful. I am not well versed in what to do for overmethylation, other than stopping taking the B12 and methylfolate. Others here might be more helpful with the details of that.

One thought I have is that maybe the methylation supps triggered a big detox of heavy metals. That has happened to me several times, and when it does I up my dose of glutathione nasal spray, which helps move the toxins out more quickly.

Also, in situations where I have severe anxiety, I increase my magnesium dosage and take holy basil with it in high doses. I use magnesium glycinate as well as magnesium oil--so I can get a big enough dose without inducing diarrhea.

I hope that's helpful. Good luck to you.

 

[Skyline]

There still may be a supplement level that you can tolerate, but it's going to be lower. This is why I hate trial and error and do muscle testing anymore.

Question: What is Muscle Testing?

I'm sure it isn't what I used to do in the gym...