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I was not viral trigger (Mine was gradual) and I have immune dysfunction, I just want to put the myth to rest. What do you all think???
So I was having a conversation with a member and this member was under the impression that because his CFS was not trigger by Virus, the member think he did not have Immune dysfunction.
So I have a question. Doesn't having CFS means that no matter the trigger you will see some deregulation on the cytokines, Viral reactivation are possible and so on???
I was not viral trigger (Mine was gradual) and I have immune dysfunction, I just want to put the myth to rest. What do you all think???
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Our current docs have a fetish for pathogen "bug hunting". It does raise the important logical point: if there are so many varied causes for an onset of an illness, then maybe it is a weakness in the patient, and not a pathogen.
I think its more related to immune system then a certain bug, as its the immune dysfunction that allows them in, which is why some people respond to certain treatments treating pathogens and some dont, u have to be treating the right pathogen which is why i think subsets help. Dare i say it even the herpes/antivral sub group that some people dont believe, even though many have been helped with treatment.
But the question is, what causes immune dysfunction in the first place?
Most microbes are able to directly cause immune dysfunction, since virtually all microbes deploy what is called immune evasion. Immune evasion is "throwing a spanner into the workings of the immune system", so as to screw it up, and thereby stop the immune system from killing the microbe.
If there is some immune dysfunction in an individual, this immune dysfunction may well be due to the immune evasion strategies employed by the microbes living within that person.
This immune evasion activity of microbes is similar to what happens in warfare: you don't just fight the enemy, you also do things to screw up the enemy's operations and logistics, which then weakens their fight.
This is what microbes do to us: they deliberately mess up or misdirect our immune systems to weaken our fight. That is what immune evasion is.
I'll give you one example of a cunning immune evasion tactic used by a microbe: Epstein-Barr virus actually has the ability to make a fake version of the human cytokine IL-10. The function of IL-10 in humans is to switch off the antiviral Th1 response, and instead switch on the antibacterial Th2 response. So this is why EBV makes this fake IL-10, because when EBV secretes IL10 it causes the human immune system to turn off its antiviral response, and this then stops EBV from being attacked by the immune system. Ref: here.
Making fake IL-10 is a brilliant strategy on behalf of EBV, but of course for us, it means we now have immune dysfunction, caused by EBV, and this immune dysfunction may make us unable to properly attack viruses in general.
I have long suspected that such immune evasion tactics may be at the heart of the immune dysfunction found in ME/CFS.
Oh very interesting. I appreciate what you're saying about hyper and hypo immune responses co-existing. Very possible this could apply to ME.
I suppose if the infection was causing the immune supression and say its ebv, then treating ebv with antivirals should increase immune function. I guess if immune function doesnt improve with antivirals then maybe the immune dysfunction came first??
Hip have u found any interesting research on NK function and coxsachie/enteroviruses?
How can we make these claims with such a lousy foundation to build upon, we do not have biomakers etc..So someone with a diagnosis of CFS could really have something else that is missed, not sure how often this would happen, but.
Not really. But I am not sure whether low natural killer cell function is a major problem in ME/CFS (even though low NK function is certainly often found in ME/CFS patients).
I have experimented with taking a lot of potent NK function boosters simultaneously, but I did not see much improvement in symptoms.
Supplements that boost NK activity include: MGN3 (extract of arabinoxylan from rice bran), AHCC (active hexose correlated compound), transfer factor, B12 methylcobalamin, echinacea, Panax ginseng, IP6 (inositol hexaphosphate), larch arabinogalactans, thymus extracts, IGF-1 hormone, low dose naltrexone, zinc, DHEA, glutamine, sulforaphane (broccoli sprout extract), astragalus, aged garlic, cordyceps, shiitake, maitake, MCP (modified citrus pectin), Rhodiola rosea (golden root), mangosteen, spirulina, Gynostemma pentaphyllum (jiaogulan), cat's claw, selenium, vitamin E, quercetin, beta sitosterol, taurine, lycopene, inosine, neem, siberian ginseng, alfalfa, noni, aloe vera.
Some of these supplements are very potent boosters of NK function. I took around 10 of the most potent above NK function boosters together, but I found the benefits minimal. Though of course, these supplements might be beneficial for someone else.
Most of the suspected pathogens would leave footprints or traces of their damage. Our medical technology could find the pathogen or at least the work it has done.
My suspiciion, hence, is that it is an issue autoimmunity and not a pathogen.
GG,
I agree with you.
Most of the suspected pathogens would leave footprints or traces of their damage. Our medical technology could find the pathogen or at least the work it has done.
The alternative is that there is a brand new bug out there that has inherently superior qualities in stealth and potency. The nature of scientific enquiry is that such new findings rarely happen.
In fact, Ockham's Razor dictates it is usually something simple, easily explained, that turns out to be the cause.
My suspiciion, hence, is that it is an issue autoimmunity and not a pathogen.
So you may try taking medications that boost your CD8 T cell responses, but is will not really help, as coxsackievirus B infected cells are invisible to these CD8 T cells.
Do you know of a medication that boosts CD8 T cell responses? I have low CD8 cells and was told there was no direct treatment. I may have misunderstood that, though.