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Lady Mar writes to Prof Wessely

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barbc56

Senior Member
Messages
3,657
ukxmrv, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to post but you haven't cited a source in even one of your above quotes. How do I know if it's only part of a document, the whole document or what? I'm not going to waste my time reading posts when there's no citation. I can tell that the video appears as nothing but propaganda and unfortunately, in my opinion this is what some of these statements are.

Please state an opinion as an opinion and please put the original links in posts. I would hope people would expect the same from me.

There is nothing wrong with opinion but there is a difference between opinions and facts.

Barb C.:>)
 

Firestormm

Senior Member
Messages
5,055
Location
Cornwall England
I am not a 'believer' in CBT as a means to a cure. Christ if you want proof that it isn't then look no further than moi. I have engaged and engaged and engaged. CBT and therapy will make you think about how you are managing your condition. How you think about your condition. It will challenge your perceptions and it will be and is uncomfortable - at times. It does question your attitude. It does make you squirm. And it isn't useful for everyone - just as no single drug is either. And that's the way I look at it - but to get the most out you have to engage and be open to the therapy itself. It can help. Helped me. Hasn't helped me to get back to work however and that was and is my overriding goal. Sustained employment. Period. But it has helped and I hope will continue to help in dealing with all the crap that comes along with a disability that is so poorly goddammit misunderstood :)
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Can anyone comment on the validly of this statement? I'm not that familiar with all the inner workings of the medical system in Great Britain. WildCat, I'm not picking on you, but it would help if people who make such statements backup their comments with facts, mine own included.

I can't speak for the UK, but in the Netherlands we have some of those problems.

For example, disabled patients supposedly get wheelchairs or other mobility devices from local councils if needed. But in my city, ME patients say they have been denied even basic wheelchairs and received recommendations that they go get CBT to fix their problems instead.

Getting a disabled parking permit is likely to be somewhere between difficult and impossible, according to my former ergotherapist.

Medication and understanding are definitely difficult to obtain. I'm lucky to have a very smart and open-minded GP, but I've also had problems with the "fatigue" clinic that supposedly treats ME. The old doctor suggested B-vitamins and Carnitine, but he's long gone and the new one just tried antidepressants which totally messed me up while I was on them. Getting referrals for OI issues was an epic struggle, and it took me almost 12 months to get from kicking up a fuss about it to getting a tilt table test.

The neurologist I saw was quite horrible, and after about 2 minutes of examining me said there was nothing he could do to help me. Very dismissive and disinterested attitude. He wrote a scathing letter to my GP (which she read to me) saying there is nothing a neurologist can do for ME patients.

Benefits probably aren't a problem here, for citizens. Even if getting acknowledged as disabled were problematic, simple welfare payments sound like they're relatively easy to obtain (compared to the US) for anyone who is unemployed.

But the general public seems pretty well-informed about ME here, probably due to recent Q-fever outbreaks affecting several thousands of people, a decent percentage of whom end up with ME. I think that's the main reason that our own rather nasty BPS groups haven't been able to make things as dismal as they are in the UK.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I am not a 'believer' in CBT as a means to a cure. Christ if you want proof that it isn't then look no further than moi. I have engaged and engaged and engaged. CBT and therapy will make you think about how you are managing your condition. How you think about your condition. It will challenge your perceptions and it will be and is uncomfortable - at times. It does question your attitude. It does make you squirm. And it isn't useful for everyone - just as no single drug is either. And that's the way I look at it - but to get the most out you have to engage and be open to the therapy itself. It can help. Helped me. Hasn't helped me to get back to work however and that was and is my overriding goal. Sustained employment. Period. But it has helped and I hope will continue to help in dealing with all the crap that comes along with a disability that is so poorly goddammit misunderstood :)

Are you talking about real CBT (designed to help you accept having a chronic illness), or CBT-for-ME (designed to help you reject that you are ill)?

If you're talking about real CBT, then no one is disagreeing with you.

The problem is that almost no one with ME gets that form of CBT, though the practitioner might pretend otherwise in the first few months to build up trust. We get the version that tells us we are not sick. That we must become more active. That we should become more social in order to improve. That we must avoid using mobility devices. That doctors cannot help us.

When most ME patients say "CBT" they're talking about that crap, not about real CBT. So you may want to keep that in mind when reading our posts to understand the context, and it would be helpful if you specify that you aren't talking about ME-CBT. It might help avoid a lot of misunderstandings :hug:
 

Firestormm

Senior Member
Messages
5,055
Location
Cornwall England
Getting a disabled parking permit is likely to be somewhere between difficult and impossible, according to my former ergotherapist..

Morning Val, I will agree with you on this point. Obtaining a 'blue badge' is notoriously difficult these days - but not just for people with ME I am afraid:

These questions are intended for people who may qualify for a Blue Badge automatically because they:
 are severely sight impaired (blind);
 receive the Higher Rate of the Mobility Component of Disability Living Allowance;
 receive the War Pensioner’s Mobility Supplement; or
 receive a qualifying award under the Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation) Scheme.

or

Questions for ‘subject to further assessment’ applicants with walking difficulties.
Please note that you will only qualify for a Blue Badge under this criterion if you, or the person on whose behalf you are applying, are over two years of age and have a permanent and substantial disability which means you are unable to walk or you have very considerable difficulty in walking.

...

Please tick whichever of the following statements describe your general walking ability:
(Please tick whichever options apply to you - you can tick more than one box).
I am able to walk well, including recreational walks.
I am able to walk around the supermarket to do my own shopping.
I am able to walk and can use public transport for some of my local trips.
I am able to walk, but struggle with longer distances or hills.
I am able to walk, but get breathless if I walk for more than a few minutes.
I am able to walk, but find it too painful to walk for more than a few minutes.
I am able to walk but use a wheelchair for longer trips outside the home.
I am able to walk around my home, but am unable to climb the stairs.
I am unable to walk at all.
Other (please describe below).

Both extracts taken from a rather long and potentially complex application: updated 10/2012: http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/idoc.ashx?docid=0f680a0a-ee0a-43e0-af0f-b7983a1321e8&version=-1

So, again, this is not precluding of ME. Indeed - and I know what you are going to think - I have several friends on the committee of which I am a member who do drive and do have 'blue badges'. Whether or not they will be able to retain these badges given the general 'tightening' of requirements I do not know.

Could I successfully apply for a 'blue badge'? Well to be honest until you asked the question - or raised the point - I had only remembered (incorrectly) that you had to have 'high rate mobility' on your DLA - and I don't. So maybe I will make an application - but I do not drive because I am more concerned about my 'mental' capacity.

By that I mean I surrendered by car because of the 'fogginess' that prevented me - I believe - from being a careful and safe driver. Several bad incidents were necessary before I took this decision. Whilst my mobility is an issue - it is for me - the bigger challenge and bigger disability I think - the cognitive dysfunction.

So anyway, I don't think in my experience at least I can agree that 'blue badges' are discriminated against for people with my condition - at least - in Cornwall. I am sorry though that you feel it is different where you live. From the application form though it also depends very much on the comments - I presume - that are obtained from one's medical advisors and therapists etc. who would be asked to support an application.
 

Firestormm

Senior Member
Messages
5,055
Location
Cornwall England
Are you talking about real CBT (designed to help you accept having a chronic illness), or CBT-for-ME (designed to help you reject that you are ill)?

If you're talking about real CBT, then no one is disagreeing with you.

The problem is that almost no one with ME gets that form of CBT, though the practitioner might pretend otherwise in the first few months to build up trust. We get the version that tells us we are not sick. That we must become more active. That we should become more social in order to improve. That we must avoid using mobility devices. That doctors cannot help us.

When most ME patients say "CBT" they're talking about that crap, not about real CBT. So you may want to keep that in mind when reading our posts to understand the context, and it would be helpful if you specify that you aren't talking about ME-CBT. It might help avoid a lot of misunderstandings :hug:

I am talking about the CBT I have had, and the CBT that is used as part of overall care delivery to those patients in my local ME Service, Val. I believe I have said this several times now but am happy to keep it clear and as relevant as I possibly can.

CBT is not easy. It is not comfortable - for anyone. But in the ME Service CBT is part of therapy, so you might say that the principles are used. And in our ME Service if you diagnosis is confirmed, then there is none of the 'ME is caused by psychosocial factors' meme. Psychosocial factors will and do impact on a person's quality of life - definitely - but a cause they ain't. Why do you think I have been so vociferous about retaining - fighting to retain - our service and better understand what it is people like Wessely are actually saying? :)

Edit:

I have no doubt that for some people psycho-social factors will be more disabling that others at various times throughout their illness. And I have no doubt that even GET (for other reasons) as well as CBT will therefore be seen as having a greater positive effect in some than in others. If CBT and GET could enable me to better live with my condition to the extent that I was e.g. able to return to sustained employment in some way, shape or form - then I would regard it as successful - but not in curing my ME. Hope that makes sense... let me know.

Will be making an announcement about my ME Service and others that even you ;) might find hopeful in the near future by the way - am subject to an embargo at the moment unfortunately :mad:
 
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Anecdotally, a friend who had been referred to our local me/cfs service had to sign that she believed there was no physical cause for her illness and, as she wouldn't and was still seeking investigations, she was told she wasn't yet ready for the service and they couldn't work with her!
I think the same person (who was also the lead for the service) also told someone else that, as they were trying to rehabilitate people, supporting benefit applications was a conflict of interest.
I don't have proof for either incident.
 

Firestormm

Senior Member
Messages
5,055
Location
Cornwall England
You know I said previously - Christ knows where now :) - that it would be interesting perhaps to look at CBT in other conditions? Well I happened to find this single study - first 'hit' - that I will take the time to read. It is of course only one of many and may not be relevant to the CBT MODEL that was used in what amounted to an EXPERIMENT in the PACE Trial for example:

Cognitive-behavioral therapy: what benefits can it offer people with multiple sclerosis?

Dennison L, Moss-Morris R.
Source

Centre for the Applications of Health Psychology, School of Psychology, University of Southampton, Highfield Campus, Southampton, UK.
Abstract

Cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) originated as a treatment for emotional disorders. However, it is increasingly used to help people with chronic illnesses manage symptoms and improve psychosocial outcomes, such as depression and quality of life.

In this article, we focus on uses of CBT in patients with multiple sclerosis, an incurable neurological disease that causes potentially debilitating symptoms and poses numerous challenges to psychological well-being.

We examine the rationale for using CBT to deal with distress, symptoms, impairment and disease exacerbation and progression, and discuss examples of existing research on the efficacy and acceptability of these interventions.

Finally, we consider areas where CBT could potentially benefit people with multiple sclerosis in the future. Ongoing challenges in this field are discussed.

September 2010: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20819010

There will always be those who will try and treat ME as something recoverable from UNTIL such time as the so-called 'PHYSICAL' nature of the condition can be better established through science and indeed a cause is proved as being applicable to the condition as a whole and not some individuals or sub-groups of patients. But even if that is one day proven to be possible - I do not believe we will see the end of CBT or GET come to that.

There are examples from patients and from professionals of differences in understanding and in their approach to our condition and to how it and we should be treated. That will remain to be the case regardless of what science proves in my opinion. Each of us is different. Each practitioner is different. Only through engaging productively/pro-actively/in a professional manner can we possibly hope to extend the reach and understanding that in some areas has been obtained.

As I said before - I do have friends in other areas of the country whose experiences in ME Clinics are not reflective of my own in any way, shape or form. I am not immune to this by any means. And yes, I do believe that a clear acknowledgement of the seriousness of our condition (as has happened) in the PACE Manual would have been preferable - but I have an inherent bias here as I am a patient.

And I need to read the participant's manual for CBT in PACE to better try and appreciate how it was explained.
 

beaker

ME/cfs 1986
Messages
773
Location
USA
Thanks.. I now see it can be read two different ways.. and I was reading it completely in a black and white kind of way taking each thing literally.

sorry beaker.. I understand what you mean by your post now.

Thank you for your apology : ) glad you understand what I was trying to get across. communication can sometimes get jumbled in our mis firing brains and on the whole internet lack of face to face thing. cheers !
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
Only with an acceptance that ME is a serious physical illness will we get the treatment we need. All the services in the world are only a sticking plaster for a wound of unknown origin that isn't healing.
GP's in this country will do tests as symptoms arise - I get palpitations, my BP goes from 99 - 160, heart monitor shows iregular heartbeat and I feel like death, (I take it on feeling ill, not the other way round) go the doc who does an ECG, which is normal, so no problems there then??? This is the sort of thing we live with x 100. I go again, get offered a/depressants. I give up and suffer the symptoms. Every morning I wake feeling like I've been hit by a truck I don't bother the GP with that one. The Countess gets it she knows we are suffering and cares deeply about it, we don't need to provide proof of the terrible situation here. GP's don't believe ME is a serious illness, fact.
Wessley did his work well.
 

Firestormm

Senior Member
Messages
5,055
Location
Cornwall England
Only with an acceptance that ME is a serious physical illness will we get the treatment we need. All the services in the world are only a sticking plaster for a wound of unknown origin that isn't healing.
GP's in this country will do tests as symptoms arise - I get palpitations, my BP goes from 109 - 160, heart monitor shows iregular heartbeat and I feel like death, (I take it on feeling ill, not the other way round) go the doc who does an ECG, which is normal, so no problems there then??? This is the sort of thing we live with x 100. I go again, get offered a/depressants. I give up and suffer the symptoms. Every morning I wake feeling like I've been hit by a truck I don't bother the GP with that one. The Countess gets it she knows we are suffering and cares deeply about it, we don't need to provide proof of the terrible situation here. GP's don't believe ME is a serious illness, fact.
Wessley did his work well.


Have a listen, Mary, I think it's worth it. She also covers current treatments, treatments in the lab, and possible future treatments too. Maybe you have listened already. Anyway, I posted it here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...tics-of-novel-subgroup-cfs.20807/#post-317348 if you want to discuss it specifically, but I thought of you when listening to it earlier.
 

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
Only with an acceptance that ME is a serious physical illness will we get the treatment we need. All the services in the world are only a sticking plaster for a wound of unknown origin that isn't healing.
GP's in this country will do tests as symptoms arise - I get palpitations, my BP goes from 109 - 160, heart monitor shows iregular heartbeat and I feel like death, (I take it on feeling ill, not the other way round) go the doc who does an ECG, which is normal, so no problems there then??? This is the sort of thing we live with x 100. I go again, get offered a/depressants. I give up and suffer the symptoms. Every morning I wake feeling like I've been hit by a truck I don't bother the GP with that one. The Countess gets it she knows we are suffering and cares deeply about it, we don't need to provide proof of the terrible situation here. GP's don't believe ME is a serious illness, fact.
Wessley did his work well.

This is exactly my experience over and over and over again for the last 17 years ad nauseum. I have never been investiagted for any other condition apart from Addisons, despite having symptoms that could be either Lupus or Sarcoidosis. I have never been tested for an autoimmune disorder, other than standard thyroid testing. All this despite being seriously ill, housebound, wheelchair bound for trips out and having had numerous cases of pleurisy and pneumonia, leaving me with significant scarring in my lungs. Even had a raised ESR and anemia recently (that doesnt resond to treatment) and they still think i just have CFS (which is just the GP s way of saying you are depressed)

Where i live ther is no M.E serivce/clinic etc at all and not one within travelling distance. I believe there is a physiotherapist in Anglesy who has a clinci because he is interested in M.E (4-5 hour drive and pointless) also there is a service in Bristol (3 hours drive and i dont qualify as i live in Wales) Despite being housebound and at one point bedbound a GP has never visited me at home, even when i had severe pneumonia and couldnt lay down for 3 months due to it.

I feel really quite distressed that some forum members don't believe what they are being told about the situation for most of us in the UK and how poorly we are treated. Despite countless visits to the doctor with joint pain and swollen joints i have never even been offered a painkiller - let a lone a referral to a rheumatologist.
Obviously i can't provide evidence of this. It's just my life i suppose that i have to live day in day out. Not believed by the doctors and now not even believed on here.

Ho Hum, Luckily ive had plenty of counselling in my life (yes including CBT, which didnt cure me or in fact help at all.) So i am a pretty well adjusted person, who thankfully (most of the time) has the resources to cope entirely alone (not withstanding my very supportive and loving husband and children) If it were not for them i would have given up long long ago.
 

urbantravels

disjecta membra
Messages
1,333
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Just to muddy the waters further, CBT is only one *type* of psychological counseling - not necessarily the best. It is, however (prepare to die of shock) favored by insurance companies because it is much quicker than other forms of therapy. "Psychodynamic" therapy is the approach that many therapists use - which is the basic thing people usually think of when they think about "therapy" - you talk about your feelings, your life experiences, your family etc. and the therapist is supposed to be your neutral ally - not telling you what you should and should not think, but helping you sort things out. It can take quite a while, but it's not like, say, classical Freudian analysis that can basically go on for years or indefinitely.

CBT, on the other hand, is designed to correct "wrong thinking" in a minimum number of sessions. There is evidently a philosophical divide between this approach and more interpersonal forms of therapy, as well as a lot of potential for abuse in what might be considered "wrong thinking." That potential for abuse certainly isn't limited to our patient group. CBT is also considered more "evidence-based" as it has been studied a lot more, thereby reinforcing the ability of insurance companies to claim it is not only a legitimate therapy, but the therapy with the best evidence of success. So if I'm an insurer and I'm *obliged* to offer mental health coverage, I will typically limit sessions of talk therapy to, say, 10 sessions a year of CBT, if that, and rationalize the limitation by pointing to the "better research base" of CBT. (At my insurer you also have to be really significantly distressed to qualify for the 10 sessions.) I can see the dilemma in not wanting to hand out weekly 1-hour sessions to anyone who is having minor problems, or just wants to unlock their creativity, or something, but something about using the "success" of CBT as a framework for rationing care smells fishy to me.

Part of the problem is that the psychodynamic/interpersonal crowd has often been opposed to doing formal studies of their work, believing that what they are doing cannot be understood by data alone. (I'm paraphrasing here, there's a lot more to it which I don't remember clearly.) And frankly, I think they're at least somewhat right. I've never *had* CBT, but from what I've heard and understand about it, many people claim it's just a band-aid over your deeper problems - or, worse, an exercise in training the patient to tell the therapist what they want to hear. Studies typically don't follow patients for years and years after therapy is concluded; the claim often made about CBT is that, by failing to address deeply underlying issues, it just temporarily suppresses those issues, where they can easily bubble back up again in the future.

This is all based on secondhand information and stuff I've read, so take me with a grain of salt. Just a reminder that "CBT" does not = "therapy." CBT is merely one form of therapy, that's designed to be quick, not dig too deeply, and starts from the premise that the patient has "wrong thoughts" and "wrong feelings."
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
barbc56

The Gibson Report, that ukxmrv cited, was a UK parliamentary inquiry into CFS/ME:
http://www.erythos.com/gibsonenquiry/Docs/ME_Inquiry_Report.pdf

As for personal experiences, we can't provide you with citations, but a number of us have explained to you in the past what the NHS services are like, and that a number of us have had really negative experiences, and that many of us have no access, or limited access, to sympathetic doctors.

I'm sure that the UK is not unique in this respect.

And a number people have said that they have had positive experiences, or mixed experiences, with their doctors.
 

Firestormm

Senior Member
Messages
5,055
Location
Cornwall England
Note: I have cut down the content of this letter. It features examples from NICE wording, and notes that no patient has to take part in either therapy. Some had said I believe this was rather naive - but the following is relevant I think to Lady Mar's position:

Originally posted here: http://peoplewithme.com/thread-1993-page-8.html

Lady Mar reply to Paul Davies 13th November 2008: http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news.php?id=3088#newspost

"...I am greatly saddened that there is so much hostility to the NICE Guidelines and, specifically, to CBT/GET. I have personal experience of the effects of an illness which wasn't diagnosed until I'd had it for three years - OP poisoning. I have been through the disbelief, both from medical profession and family. I have had a referral to a psychologist (which I refused).

I know what it is like to suffer excruciating pain and mental confusion. I have learned how to manage my illness (call it CBT, if you like), which has left several unpleasant symptoms, jointly with my GP and consultants, so I think I have some idea of where people with ME are coming from. The whole point is that CBT/GET are not compulsory.

At the moment there is no other universal treatment. Might I respectfully suggest that you read the NICE Quick Reference Guide carefully and, instead of vigorously opposing everything in them, you use its contents to empower people with ME to negotiate the best way forward for them with their medical practitioners, specialists and social service providers?

The CMO, the Department of Health and NICE acknowledge that ME is not a psychosocial problem but, as with any long-term illness, there are psychological aspects to it. In the absence of any treatment, they recommend CBT/GET for a few who might benefit from it. It really is time that we all acknowledge the good bits of any government instigated proposals and that we work together to put right those parts that are unhelpful..."

My spacing.

The issue in the most recent letters is not the NICE Guideline or the provision of CBT and GET. It is the desire on Lady Mar's behalf to obtain confirmation from Wessely that he no longer holds the following true, or that if he still does, then perhaps for a better explanation as to why and how successful this belief might have been (that last is my summation):

From most recent letter to Wessely dated 12th December 2012: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/lady-mar-writes-to-prof-wessely.20750/page-6

"...Please will you answer the central question: do you still believe that ME/CFS is “perpetuated predominantly by dysfunctional beliefs and coping behaviours”?"

I think she feels this belief is not in keeping with the NICE Guideline or the CMO report and the provision of CBT and GET. I figured it was necessary to let folk see what Lady Mar does support. Unless she has of course changed her position in recent years following the move towards the approach adopted in the manual of PACE or indeed the PACE Trial itself.
 

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
Anecdotally, a friend who had been referred to our local me/cfs service had to sign that she believed there was no physical cause for her illness and, as she wouldn't and was still seeking investigations, she was told she wasn't yet ready for the service and they couldn't work with her!
I think the same person (who was also the lead for the service) also told someone else that, as they were trying to rehabilitate people, supporting benefit applications was a conflict of interest.
I don't have proof for either incident.

It is certainly believable, though I would think that must be illegal given the official acceptance of the illness as a neurological illness. I'm sure it could be challenged, though of course that is a long and tiring journey.
My own experience of the local ME clinic (Bath, UK) was that they were sympathetic, the specialist who diagnosed me was very good, but overal they couldn't offer much in the way of real help. The GET they provided me quickly knocked me back a year or more, so I cant possibly recomend them outright, but they had a new Pyscologist who I saw and she agreed at once that she couldnt change my illness only help me to cope with the devastating reality of the illness, and she continued to hold true to this understanding through the time that i saw her. It did not, of course, make any difference to the ME but it did help me come to terms with having the illness, at least, in part.

GP's don't believe ME is a serious illness, fact.
Wessley did his work well.

Not true everywhere. Things are changing, slowly. The GPs that I see aren't able to help me but I get the impression that they do consider it a real illness. The reason they can't help is because they are restricted by the NICE guidelines and wouldnt know what to do even if they had more freedom. There is still a lot of progress to be made, and damage to be undone, but there are some positive signs of progress. Of course, I accept that this is not true everywhere; there are probably still more people in the NHS with outdated view than not.
 

Firestormm

Senior Member
Messages
5,055
Location
Cornwall England
You know I said previously - Christ knows where now :) - that it would be interesting perhaps to look at CBT in other conditions? Well I happened to find this single study - first 'hit' - that I will take the time to read: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20819010

Cognitive–behavioral therapy: what benefits can it offer people with multiple sclerosis? My initial comment here.
 
Messages
5
I would still like to see some documentation about these specific services being denied to ME/CFS patients in the UK>
The recent AfME report on NHS provision for ME patients provides strong evidence of lack of care in Great Britain. It's a comprehensive survey of every local health trust, and was called "Ignorance, injustice and neglect" because,

What this investigation has revealed is:
• widespread ignorance on the part of commissioners who in so many areas don’t even know what the patient needs are
injustice towards patients who are the innocent victims of a very pronounced post code lottery effect across England
neglect particularly of severely affected patients who in the main do not receive any domiciliary secondary care service from the NHS; and neglect of children who are not getting the early diagnosis and early referrals as set out by NICE.

The full report is here: http://www.actionforme.org.uk/Resou...HS report Ignorance injustice and neglect.pdf

There was a thread here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/david-puttnam-on-afme-report.17940/
 
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