The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?

[AFCFS]

Thought this article and associated research were interesting.

Lack motivation? Blame your brain chemistry

By Sarah Korones | May 6, 2012, 2:43 PM PDT

The difference between slackers and go-getters might come down to brain chemistry, a new study from Vanderbilt University reports.

According to the new research, varying dopamine responses in the brain may be the reason some people work around the clock while others prefer to snooze the day away. The brain’s responsiveness to dopamine, a neurotransmitter critical for movement, motivation and reward, could even be an innate trait.

To gauge the participants attitudes towards hard work, the researchers asked each one to play a game in which pressing a button was correlated with winning an award. While easy tasks reaped small monetary rewards, more challenging ones could result in larger sums. Some participants accepted harder challenges against greater odds, while the “slackers” of the group abandoned attempts involving too much effort.

The participants then underwent positron emission tomography (PET) scans that measured dopamine activity in different parts of the brain.

What the scientists found when looking at the scans somewhat surprised them. People who put in more effort showed greater dopamine response in the striatum and ventromedial prefrontal cortex, brain areas involved in reward and motivation. People without the go-get-‘em attitude had greater dopamine levels in the insula, a brain area involved in emotion and risk perception.

The finding that dopamine can have different effects in different parts of the brain could complicate treatments for attention-deficit disorder, depression, and schizophrenia—which all make use of psychotropic medications that affect dopamine levels.

“Imagine how valuable it would be if we had an objective test that could tell whether a patient was suffering from a deficit or abnormality in an underlying neural system,” David Zald, one of the study’s authors, said in a statement. “With objective measures we could treat the underlying conditions instead of the symptoms.”

The study is published in the Journal of Neuroscience.

[via EurekAlert, Vanderbilt University News]

 

[Valentijn]

My dopamine levels were normal, and I don't have a problem with "slacking off". More of the opposite - I tend to overdo things, if I'm not very careful.

 

[AFCFS]

My dopamine levels were normal

How did you have them tested?

 

[Valentijn]

How did you have them tested?

Blood platelet levels.

 

[AFCFS]

Another take, Slacker or Go-Getter? Brain Chemical May Tell, says:

Dopamine does different things in different areas of the brain. So while high levels in some brain regions were associated with a high work ethic, a spike in another brain region seemed indicate just the opposite — a person more likely to slack off, even if it meant smaller monetary rewards.

It eems that urine and blood tests may pick up high levels - What are Abnormal Dopamine Levels?, but think the study is more indicative of brain levels that may spike in one area of the brain vs another.

Here is the whole article:

Slacker or Go-Getter? Brain Chemical May Tell

What gives you the motivation to go the extra mile for a promotion or a perfect test score? It may be your levels of a brain chemical called dopamine. Researchers have found amounts of this chemical in three brain regions determine if a person is a go-getter or a procrastinator.

Dopamine does different things in different areas of the brain. So while high levels in some brain regions were associated with a high work ethic, a spike in another brain region seemed indicate just the opposite — a person more likely to slack off, even if it meant smaller monetary rewards.

"To our surprise, we also found a different region of the brain, the anterior insula, that showed a strong negative relationship between dopamine level and willingness to work hard," study researcher Michael Treadway, graduate student at Vanderbilt University, told LiveScience.

The fact that dopamine can have opposing effects on different parts of the brain puts a wrench in how psychotropic drugs that affect dopamine levels are used for the treatment of attention-deficit disorder (ADD), depression and schizophrenia, Treadway noted. The general assumption has been that these dopamine-releasing drugs have the same effect throughout the brain.

Dopamine brain
The researchers scanned the brains of 25 young adult volunteers and put them through a test to see how hard they were willing to work for a monetary reward. They would choose either an easy or a difficult button-pushing task, and get rewarded either $1 or a variable value of up to $4. They repeated these 30-second tasks for 20 minutes.
Some of the participants opted to work harder for the larger reward by completing the difficult task, while others chose the easier task more often and accepted the small reward. Does this choice make them lazy? Maybe, Treadway said: "They were less motivated by this particular task. We suspect it predicts, to a certain extent, how motivated they might be in other contexts."

They compared testing data with brain scans of these patients, with and without administration of the dopamine-releasing drug amphetamine, which provides a reading of how much dopamine is normally released in different areas in the brain. [Inside the Brain: A Journey Through Time]

"You've got someone deciding, 'Do I want to work a bit more or a bit less? How do I factor in these odds?' Some people just went for it," Treadway said. The researchers found that these hardworking people had the most dopamine in two areas of the brain known to play an important role in reward and motivation, and low dopamine levels in the anterior insula, a region linked to motivation and risk perception.

Motivation and mental illness
These differences may mean that the choice between working hard and slacking off depend on how the brain weighs risk and reward, the researchers said. Some people are more wary about taking a risk and expending extra energy for an unlikely, but larger, reward. Other people concentrate more on the big reward they could get, and downplay the possible losses (of energy and time).

These findings could be important in getting a better grip on mental illnesses characterized by a lack of motivation, such as ADD, depression and schizophrenia, the researchers said. "Understanding some of these region-specific patterns may help us, at some point down the line, do a better job of predicting how patients may respond to different types of medication,"

"We think that part of what is going on in depression is some alteration in motivation pathways and part of the impetus for this study was working towards a model to be able to test the role of motivation in depression," Treadway said. "This may be a way to assess the motivational side of depression."

The study was published today (May 1) in the Journal of Neuroscience.

 

[L'engle]

This is interesting but perhaps a moderator could move this to the "other health news" section and out of the "symptoms" sections. Articles where the main subjects of the study were not ME/CFS sufferers should I think be carefully separated from those that are about ME/CFS symptoms and studies. Thanks anyway!

 

[MishMash]

AFCFS
I'm surprised students were able to get into Vanderbilt University and be slackers. It is considered kind of a prestigious school.

Also, I wonder how many of the designated slacker squad would act that way if they were doing something they truly enjoyed. In the case of college students, that means playing video games *sigh*. I mean for today's youth, $4 doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot.

 

[AFCFS]

This is interesting but perhaps a moderator could move this to the "other health news" section and out of the "symptoms" sections. Articles where the main subjects of the study were not ME/CFS sufferers should I think be carefully separated from those that are about ME/CFS symptoms and studies. Thanks anyway!

I don't have any problem where it goes, but think it is as valid a symptom as any others that are posted under symptoms. When did alcohol intolerance, night sweats, or decreased stool transit time become CFS symptoms? They may all point to symptioms that may or may not be related to CFS; each can also be found in many other illnesses not specific to CFS, which is one reason CFS has been difficult to Dx and to treat. So, in that view, I believe the research is well placed.

In addition, many symptoms are expressed as singular elements, but are actually multifaceted. Many seem to despise the use of the word "Fatigue" in CFS, as it is either not comprehensive, not specific, or not indicative enough of "what is being experienced." For myself, I would say that "Fatigue" is a multifaceted word and includes the very notion of motivation. Until a specific cause or delineated etiology for CFS is found and agreed upon, linguistic specificity may be more of a hindrance to CFS than a boon.

- For all we know, dopamine imbalance, spikes, peaks, highs, or lows, could be the defining factor of CFS in 10 years, to think otherwise is to limit perspective on possible treatments and cure.

 

[taniaaust1]

I don't have any problem where it goes, but think it is as valid a symptom as any others that are posted under symptoms. When did alcohol intolerance, night sweats, or decreased stool transit time become CFS symptoms? They may all point to symptioms that may or may not be related to CFS;

Those others ARE known ME/CFS symptoms.. where as slackness sure isnt and that inference is quite offensive to many of us due to just how slack we knew we arent. If anything most of those who get ME/CFS were anything other then slackers as its the pushing of ourselves which lead to many not getting worst or stopped us from getting better. Many of us were overachievers and we tend to over do things if we arent watching ourselves closely to make sure we carefully pace and ease up like we NEED to do.

Alcohol Intollerence was almost made part of one of the CFS diagnostic criteria as there was much serious consideration around it and that (my memory isnt great but it may of been the canadian consensus defintion it almost got into). It is a well known fact that many ME patients get night sweats (often part of the virally ME symptoms which is quite a classical presentation) and IBS is a well known part of this illness too.. many of us have IBS-C with it (which slows down stool transit).


This illness thou dont change personality in the way of if a person was a slacker before they got this illness, they are bound to be just as much of a slacker with it. This wouldnt mean that then their slackness is part of this illness.

 

[taniaaust1]

To gauge the participants attitudes towards hard work, the researchers asked each one to play a game in which pressing a button was correlated with winning an award

I think this is a very shoddy study if its meant to show what slackers dopamine levels are like.

It could well be that those who are into serious stuff like working hard arent into gambling or computer like games so much, where a button needs to be pressed for a reward. (that's a mindless activity many slackers may enjoy), a "slacker" (someone who was into sitting in a pub all day playing gambling games) may more so enjoy. Maybe the work challenge would show something completely different if an activity, which may not be attractive to just one of the groups was used in the test (eg copying out letters or something..for no rewards).

There are much better ways to find out the colleration? corration?? (what's that word) between dopamine and hard work and attitudes towards hard work which wouldnt be maybe an indication of dopamine and gambling and computer games..

All they'd have to do is to compare the dopamine levels of those who were on the dole due to not being interested in getting a job (or those who kept knocking back jobs) to those who were hard working people with very busy jobs.

 

[AFCFS]

Those others ARE known ME/CFS symptoms

Where? To whom? - not anecdotally - but where are they (all) in an accepted medical reference list?

If anything most of those who get ME/CFS were anything other then slackers as its the pushing of ourselves which lead to many not getting worst or stopped us from getting better.

I also was never known as having slacknees - until I got CFS. That is why it is interesting to me, as I try to search for a reason - for that part of the puzzle.

It is a well known fact that many ME patients get night sweats (often part of the virally ME symptoms which is quite a classical presentation) and IBS is a well known part of this illness too.. many of us have IBS-C with it (which slows down stool transit).

It is also well known that many cancer patients get night sweats... Has it been proven that ME is viral? Does everyone with CFS present with IBS?

This illness thou dont change personality in the way of if a person was a slacker before they got this illness, they are bound to be just as much of a slacker with it. This wouldnt mean that then their slackness is part of this illness.

Dopamine has a right to change in a CFS person just as much as viral state, or whatver causes IBS.

- ultimately "we do not know, what we do not know"

 

[Aileen]

I think this is a very shoddy study if its meant to show what slackers dopamine levels are like.

It could well be that those who are into serious stuff like working hard arent into gambling or computer like games so much, where a button needs to be pressed for a reward. (that's a mindless activity many slackers may enjoy), a "slacker" (someone who was into sitting in a pub all day playing gambling games) may more so enjoy. Maybe the work challenge would show something completely different if an activity, which may not be attractive to just one of the groups was used in the test (eg copying out letters or something..for no rewards).

This was my thought as well. How can you say this measures laziness?

They would choose either an easy or a difficult button-pushing task, and get rewarded either $1 or a variable value of up to $4. They repeated these 30-second tasks for 20 minutes.

If I was a student doing this, I'd be deciding how difficult a task to do based on maximizing profit. You want to do the tasks with the highest dollar reward BUT only if you think you can accomplish it. Don't do it, or get it wrong ... no money. (I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that if you messed up, you wouldn't get your reward for that task.) They were 30 second tasks so not a lot of time to think. It would depend on your skill level at whatever it was. If you weren't so good at it, you would make more money by choosing easier tasks. That isn't lazy, it's smart!!

How about this for a laziness test? After a snowstorm, get a group of people out to shovel sidewalks for a set period of time (for free). See how much each person does. That will separate the go-getters from the slackers!

 

[taniaaust1]

Ailleen that snow challenge would be a great way to study hardworkers and slackers esp if they only knew they were in a study but didnt know at all what was being studied.. then test the dopamine levels after and see levels of slackers and the hardworkers. (hardworkers would also be more likely to be fitter due to more motivation then slackers.. so would find a snow challenge easier).

One really wonders why money is spend on such stupid obviously not thought out much studies. I think most the psych studies done are done in such a way in which they are planned so to prove whatever the person doing the study is wanting to try to prove..

 

[Tally]

I also was never known as having slacknees - until I got CFS.

What makes you think you have slackness now?

I can't help but feel that if you want to call us slackers you have to also call a man with no legs a slacker - after all, he never wants to run, or even take a walk!

 

[Valentijn]

Where? To whom? - not anecdotally - but where are they (all) in an accepted medical reference list?

85% of Phoenix Rising members responding to the poll in this same subforum. You posted on it a few days ago.

I also was never known as having slacknees - until I got CFS. That is why it is interesting to me, as I try to search for a reason - for that part of the puzzle.

There's often a big difference between the reality we face and the perception of it by others. The answer for most of us is that we weren't slackers before we got sick, and we still aren't now. The difference in our activity levels is solely attributable to our illness.

 

[taniaaust1]

What makes you think you have slackness now?

I can't help but feel that if you want to call us slackers you have to also call a man with no legs a slacker - after all, he never wants to run, or even take a walk!

Ive noticed that some who get ME/CFS end up with warped views of themselves which can happen for a couple of different reasons eg others constantly telling the person they are being slack and doctors telling the person they arent really sick can end up making a person end up convincing themselves that they must be being slack.

My sister has this perception issue at times too.. calling herself slack when its rather its cause she's just too sick stopping her from doing things. My sister has a lot of denial of her own illness going on (at this point she's not even willing to believe she has ME/CFS)..and telling others she was being slack is just another excuse she uses both to herself and to others, rather then face that she's actually sick and the truth of her situation...this being, that she just isnt able to do all the things she wants to any more.

Others may be just being far too hard on themselves and having over the top, completely unrealistic expectations on themselves while they are ill so start thinking they are being slack.

That is the kind of area that a "good" psychologist for ME/CFS (unfortunately these are far and few between) can help with.. making the person aware that they truely arent being "slackers' (false perception) but rather just not doing as much as they used to, due to just being sick and ones body screaming at one to stop.

AFCFS ..Do you have ME/CFS? Do you think you are slack? Did you "percieve" yourself as slack before you got this illness? Im very curious where your perception of ME/CFS people being slackers and that this is a symptom of this illness is coming from..

 

[Undisclosed]

The study had N = 25 which basically means nothing. The study was not studying people with ME or any other illness therefore has nothing to do with ill people.

What is up with the title of this thread -- "The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?"

Would somebody with Cancer appreciate "The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has do with Cancer?"

As for the title -- "The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?" -- my answer -- Nothing!!!

I am not a slacker. Never have been, never will be.

Definition of slacker by the way is:

A person who avoids work or effort.
A person who evades military service.

Synonyms:

idler - sluggard - loafer - lazybones

So really, how much of being an idler, sluggard, loafer, lazybones has to do with 'CFS'. Nothing, unless you happen to be a psychiatrist.

Kina.

 

[AFCFS]

AFCFS ..Do you have ME/CFS? Do you think you are slack? Did you "percieve" yourself as slack before you got this illness? Im very curious where your perception of ME/CFS people being slackers and that this is a symptom of this illness is coming from..

Yes, I was diagnosed with CFS. Yes, I think I am slack - not the way I ever used to be. I look back, from now being bedridden, and see what I once was. I had been a CEO of a start-up corporation. I had completed 3 years of graduate school in 2 years, while working full time and doing emergency volunteer work for the Red Cross. I used to teach martial arts, and be competitive athletically. I used to travel and have a love of the remote outdoors - I enjoyed hiking, backpacking, canyoneering, rappelling, mountain bike riding. Even as life had changed my motivations and I no longer wanted the immediacy of the business world, I continued to be active in my community and sought to pursue another graduate degree in that capacity.

Then: No motivation. I tried to get up one morning - not only did I feel I could not, I did not want to - as though I had walked 1000 miles only to get run over by a train. My motivation was not what it once was, even a few days before. I now seem to have a lack of motivation, and also never considered myself a slacker, but now feel like one.

CFS - an illness essentially defined by exclusion of other possible illnesses.There are a handful of symptoms that are not well agreed upon. They seem to manifest in various ways - and are perceived in various ways - by various individuals. I perceive my lack of motivation as being like a slacker inside. Apparently CFS itself can sap one of desire, even desire most fundamental to our being. I consider it part and parcel of the illness and do not take it as negative connotation in that context.

No motivation - why? Is it that big of deal to ask why, and form novel ideas, given the absence of definition in the illness? And with no definitive answer to flirt with all who may present a question not previously asked, if not an answer? I think not.

I find the fiddling with words and and attempting to find proper analogies to relay to others to be daunting. I recall more than once, seeing a doctor and reporting that I had "cognitive clouding," which they did not seem to understand until I qualified the statement by saying, "it is like brain fog" - for whatever reason they did not understand the former but did understood the latter.

So, if going to a doc and I say, "I feel unmotivated," and get a blank look, maybe I can appeal that look by saying "kind of like a slacker - not myself - wonder if dopamine has anything to do with it." Maybe I will come closer to touching on their medical knowledge.

What is up with the title of this thread -- "The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?"

What's up with the title? It is question - based on my personal experience. Thank you for your answer. "Nothing!!!" - being an answer, even though I infer it to be rather callous in that it seems to delegitimize my experience, at least as an answer it surely validates the question.

And yes, I avoid work or effort - like the plague, as it seems to compromise an already fragile system, even though this was not once the case. I am not motivated to do what I once did. I feel like a slacker, that I do not recognize - and I wonder why?

- I apologize if use of the word has offended anyone, but I will never apologize for my subjective experience.

 

[Undisclosed]

.......

What's up with the title? It is question - based on my personal experience. Thank you for your answer. "Nothing!!!" - being an answer, even though I infer it to be rather callous in that it seems to delegitimize my experience, at least as an answer it surely validates the question.

........
- I apologize if use of the word has offended anyone, but I will never apologize for my subjective experience.

My answer of 'nothing' was not 'callous' -- being a slacker has nothing to do with ME/CFS. The use of the word
slacker 'delegitmizes' my experience of illness because being referred to as a 'slacker' or an idler, sluggard. loafer, or lazybones is insulting. I used to be a R.N. and I can tell you if I even suggested my patients dying of Cancer or who were ill with MS or liver disease were 'slackers', I likely would have been fired. Slacker is not in my vocabulary and it never will be.

If you think some kind of dopamine imbalance causes symptoms in 'CFS' why involve a label that has such negative connotations. We don't describe people with Parkinson's Disease (dopamine related) as slackers and unmotivated. This kind of thing doesn't do us any good. Let's see 'slackers' are often associated with fakers trying to get a free ride from the government. Lack of motivation is often associated with depression. I personally think it is 'callous' to call any ill person a slacker. If people can't work or function because they are ill, it's because they are too sick to work or function, not because they are a slacker. Slacker is a word that should NOT be associated with illness. Therefore, the answer for - 'The slacker inside - wonder how much of this has to do with CFS?' is again - nothing, and that's my subjective experience.

 

[taniaaust1]

thanks for sharing so much personal stuff about yourself.. its helped us to see where you are coming from. The term did 'grate" on many of us as many who dont understand how sick we are, do think we are slackers and nearly all of us are aware we arent.

And yes, I avoid work or effort - like the plague, as it seems to compromise an already fragile system, even though this was not once the case. I am not motivated to do what I once did. I feel like a slacker, that I do not recognize - and I wonder why?

If a person had a sprained ankle.. would it be right to consider them being slack if they didnt then want to walk on the sprained injured foot which was in truth needing to be rested?

That is currently what you are trying to do to yourself.. blaming yourself like a person who has got a very real foot injury unrealistically may do, if he wasnt willing to walk on it and percieving his situation to be in a certain way.

as it seems to compromise an already fragile system

Its good that you do have awareness there of that.

Ask yourself seeing you do have that awareness that doing activities is compromising your fragile system.. ask yourself why you are choosing still to use such negative wording eg "slacker" for yourself. Ask yourself if it may be cause you struggling to accept your illness?

I think us high achievers have even more trouble at times accepting illness then the rest of the population do.., way overly hard on ourselves at times. So many concepts need to be changed on what makes us good or bad people, high achievers may judge people and ourselves on our achievements.. Possibly you are still seeing your self worth still in how much you can and achieve by amounts achieved and how high the achievement is in the eyes of others.. rather then viewing achievement in the challenge of the achievement itself. eg how hard it really was for you. If one struggles to get out of bed in the morning and it is difficult doing the dishes.. achieving that is actually a high achievement when one is sick. Just walking to the loo may be an achievement!!!

Your "lack of motivation" is probably your body telling you it needs to take things easier and needs to rest. I see much of the lack of motivation in this illness as a self defence thing to help actually protect the person .. your subconciousness knows what is good and bad for you.

With some of cause lack of motivation may be depression.. if someone is actually depressed, they should be treated for that symptom but for many of us its just case of body and ourselves, knowing we need to protect our fragile systems and NEEDING to take things easy.

Think of someone sick in bed with flu.. do they often "feel" like making themselves and get up and go to work while very sick with flu? No.. most quite sick in flu will be WANTING to stay in bed and rest even the highly motivated personality ones. Why are you viewing this sickness you have now.. different to if you were very sick with something else (Im not wanting an answer but that is something I think may be worth thinking over).

Apparently CFS itself can sap one of desire, even desire most fundamental to our being

I think its usually depression not ME/CFS itself which takes away peoples true desires. Eg ask a non depressed ME person what they would love to do if they could and werent sick.. they'd share with you the same dreams and desires they had before the illness. They havent lost the desire for things... whereas someone with coexisting depression may answer they dont have anything they'd like to be doing if they could or just give an "I dont know" .

So, if going to a doc and I say, "I feel unmotivated," and get a blank look, maybe I can appeal that look by saying "kind of like a slacker - not myself - wonder if dopamine has anything to do with it." Maybe I will come closer to touching on his medical knowledge.

Take care on what words u use to a doctor.. calling yourself a slacker may give him the opinion that you think you arent trying with things at all and may make him think you are exaggerating your illness.