Is fatty liver and raised liver enzymes a B12 problem ?

[Freddd]

fredd and nanonug---that is interesting about high b12 and liver probs.....huh, is there research a mainstream doc would believe in I could give him to indicate that?
thanks for the information btw

so what does one do about that?

and right, I don't supplement b12 cuz I felt bad from any form of it, even tried pure b12 injections Cheney prescribes so I dont know why my b12 would be significantly above normal

so does that mean I am not absorbing enough b12? but what to do if I dont feel good supplementing it and don't absorb it.

Hi Xrayspec,

People that have the "worst" reaction to b12 are usually having a most excellent response that is misunderstood. When b12 triggers healing whammo - low potassium and low folate leaving the person very sick and getting worse fast.

The liver damage releasing b12 into the blood studies is all from journals on Google Scholar and very mainstrream.

 

[Freddd]

Hey Nano, how do you purchase that multi? seems like I can't look at the price unless I register as a healthcare pro.
I have mixed feelings about buying a multi B because I have such bad luck with supplements and not tolerating the b's in any form , but I havent taken a multi B for many years so maybe could try it again in small amounts to start out, do you know if there are any good liquid multiB's out there, could control the dose better.

Hi Xrayspec,
A "bad" reaction to a b-complex or multivitamin is often a paradoxical folate deficiency result and can be dealt with appropriately.

 

[AFCFS]

I have problems with fatty liver as well. For me it seems related to a familial tendency towards type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome. If I don't eat a low carb diet and cut out all simple sugars I will gain about 10 lbs in my mid section and my liver enzymes will creep up. My cholesterol profile will also get out of whack.

I think when my metabolism was normal before I got CFS, I had more resilience when it came to this stuff. I could eat things like pasta and some sugars and not gain weight/cholesterol/liver enzymes. I will also get more easily hypoglycemic than before, which I have learned is an early indicator for insulin resistance. Lack of sleep will exacerbate it. Now, if I stray from my diet for more than a week it is pretty noticeable. Also, not being able to really exercise has been a big problem too.

This also seems to be my case, to some extent. Just had an abdominal CT scan and the radiologist's notes showed: "There is moderate fatty infiltration of the liver with slight areas of relative sparing peripherally." Will need to have the referring doc make sense of all that in context of everything else. WebMD gives a pretty good overview:

The cause of nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is not clear. Certain factors tend to increase risk, but in some cases, no risk factors show up. However, NAFLD tends to run in families. It also shows up most often in people who are middle-aged and overweight or obese. These people often have high cholesterol or triglycerides and diabetes or prediabetes (insulin resistance), as well.
Other potential causes of fatty liver disease include:

• Medications
• Viral hepatitis
• Autoimmune or inherited liver disease
• Rapid weight loss
• Malnutrition

Radiopaedia.org also has some good info: Diffuse hepatic steatosis (also known as 'fatty liver') and Focal fatty sparing of the liver. Think it is important to head their popup note: "This site is targeted at medical and radiology professionals, contains user contributed content, and material that may be confusing to a lay audience."

After my physician visit early in the year, her staff called me with my test results. Among them was elevated ALT liver enzymes for which she said to take milk thistle. Does that mean I have non-alcoholic fatty liver disease? They didn't seem concerned.

I have an extreme B12 deficiency. I am assuming that I also have an extreme B2 deficiency, based on the controversial theories of Christine.

Was wondering if you had taken the milk thistle and had any results? - were you retested? One doc was not concerned about my elevated AST/ALT, another one ordered the abdominal CT scan (in conjunction with some other factors - he did not seem overly concerned but wanted to check it out). When I had further queried the one who did not have concern, he seemed to want to cover himself by stating that it might be something to keep an eye on over time.

Have no idea how this will be play out, but also had "There is a slightly elongated portacaval node. It is thin in other dimensions." - it does not seem very appealing to me.

 

[alex3619]

This is all very complicated stuff. It is quite likely that methylation issues do not have a direct effect on fatty liver, but do have an indirect effect.

For example we know we have circadian issues. These induce fatty liver by interfering with hormones that induce fat regulation in the liver. In turn circadian issues are induced by PGD2 and oxidative stress, though I am still researching PGD2 and am not sure of the effects. Oxidative stress is tied to methylation issues.

So methylation treatments might help the brain (hypothalmic SCN), which in turn then regulates the liver better.That is how I currently see it.

If I am right then the prevalence of fatty liver in ME will be closely associated with the prevalence of circadian dysfunction. Also, there is some indication these might be associated with airway hyper-reactivity, presuming of course that PGD2 is the mediator.

I am currently looking into these things.

Bye, Alex

 

[Little Bluestem]

Was wondering if you had taken the milk thistle and had any results? - were you retested?

I have not taken the Milk Thistle. Originally that was because Christine said that it would deplete my B2. I then decided not to take it until my liver had been retested to see if the B2 helped. It took me a while to get to my physician and I do not yet have the results over a month later.

 

[Little Bluestem]

If I am right then the prevalence of fatty liver in ME will be closely associated with the prevalence of circadian dysfunction. Also, there is some indication these might be associated with airway hyper-reactivity, presuming of course that PGD2 is the mediator.

I have circadian dysfunction and have/had fatty liver.
Is airway hyper-reactivity the same thing as respiratory hypersensitivity (aka allergies)?

 

[alex3619]

Hi Little Bluestem, airway hyper-reactivity is a general term for a range of things including respiratory allergic responses. At least that is how I understand it. However to be sure I will have to do a lot more reading on PGD2. Bye, Alex

 

[aprilk1869]

Has anyone been reading Dr Jack Kruse's blog? He talks about various things including leptin resistance, DNA methylation, fatigue, inflammation and non alcoholic fatty liver disease.

Here are a few links to get started:-

http://www.jackkruse.com/chapter-one-on-leptin/
http://www.jackkruse.com/leptin-part-deux-the-liver/
http://www.jackkruse.com/why-is-oprah-still-obese-leptin-part-3/

 

[Asklipia]

Has anyone been reading Dr Jack Kruse's blog? He talks about various things including leptin resistance, DNA methylation, fatigue, inflammation and non alcoholic fatty liver disease.

Here are a few links to get started:-

http://www.jackkruse.com/chapter-one-on-leptin/
http://www.jackkruse.com/leptin-part-deux-the-liver/
http://www.jackkruse.com/why-is-oprah-still-obese-leptin-part-3/

Very interesting. I notice that he mentions the extreme importance of the two things I cited as having helped me most :
- cold thermogenesis http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/bains-dérivatifs.15574/
- MK-4 http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/has-vitamin-k-2-mk-4-or-mk7-helped-you.15605/

as well as the importance of eating organ meats and avoiding sweeteners and MSG at all costs.
I am very happy to see that someone with more clout is giving out the same advice as I would (only I do not give advice, just report on what worked for me )

I haven't read all his blog yet so cannot comment on some short-comings I feel there might be. Let's say that for now I think he is 80% right, which is more than I can say of the opinions of anybody I read! Also maybe I don't understand all he writes yet, and maybe he is keeping quiet about some things that he will reveal later on, when the readers are ready.


Be well and enjoy!
Asklipia

 

[CAcfs]

Just off the top of my head, and without reading the replies.....

I think fatty liver is from high homocysteine, right? Which can be corrected with TMG. I could be wrong, but look into it.

I think the high homocysteine leads to all kinds of health issues. It's a simple blood test a doctor can do. Proper amounts of folate will lower homocysteine, as will TMG. Correct me if I"m wrong, anyone. I really think it's as simple as that, just for the general population, leaving CFS/ME out of it. For regular people, if you have the MTHFR mutation (heterozygous even), you may not be processing enough folate, and you are likely to have high homocysteine, so I'd just take Solgar's methylfolate, and then maybe some TMG too, until your homocysteine levels in your blood drop. A doctor should be able to do a blood test for homocysteine, like I said. You don't want that to be high! Having CFS, it is more likely that you are havin' a homocysteine issue.

 

[CAcfs]

Oh, also....B12 may lower homocysteine too? Back to your original question. Can't recall if B12 will. My worry is that you are getting complex answers when the problem can be solved in a more simple fashion. I would take TMG by Now brand if you can tolerate it (it might help your fatigue), B12 hydroxy by Perque (i get mine at pureencapsulations.com I think), and methylfolate (called Metafolin) by Solgar. You can get them all on iherb.com, except the Perque Hydroxy B12. Methyl B12 might help too, depends on the person, you can get that on iherb.com. I don't necessarily believe the issue should be made too complicated....instead, I think you should just try a few supplements until something really starts lowering that homocysteine. A doctor may not know about all these supplements, but they could do the test for homocysteine. I would just start googling the homocysteine and fatty liver stuff and see if you find good info.

I seem to feel much better with those three supplements I mentioned. And I remember reading about fatty liver somewhere along the way.

 

[nanonug]

I think fatty liver is from high homocysteine, right?

I don't think so. Non-alcoholic fatty liver disease appears to be associated with metabolic syndrome. Wikipedia has more info on NAFLD.

 

[AFCFS]

I have not taken the Milk Thistle. Originally that was because Christine said that it would deplete my B2. I then decided not to take it until my liver had been retested to see if the B2 helped. It took me a while to get to my physician and I do not yet have the results over a month later.

I tried to search around for milk thistle and b2 interactions, but could not find any. I think sometimes it is a balancing act with the supplements.

I did see my internist and he told me to take Milk Thistle 300 mg 3 times a day. This in conjunction with a low animal fat, low carb diet (complex carbs like legumes are fine). He said the fatty liver should be noticeably reversing in 3 months time and then would need another CT Scan to verify.

Not sure if it is the Milk Thistle or something else (also started Grape Seed Extract - internist said was optional but not necessary - but good antioxidant) but one of them or combo seems to act as natural diuretic. Not rapid, copious amounts, but just a nice consistent flow throughout the day. I had had some unresolved bloating and now seems to be diminished.

 

[Little Bluestem]

I tried to search around for milk thistle and b2 interactions, but could not find any. I think sometimes it is a balancing act with the supplements.

I did see my internist and he told me to take Milk Thistle 300 mg 3 times a day. This in conjunction with a low animal fat, low carb diet (complex carbs like legumes are fine). He said the fatty liver should be noticeably reversing in 3 months time and then would need another CT Scan to verify.

I don’t know that the milk thistle/B2 relationship would necessarily be listed as an interaction. As I understand it, B2 is needed to metabolize milk thistle. Christine thought that my liver needed the B2 worse for other purposes. She had me stop taking some other supplements that she said were depleting my B2 as well.

Unfortunately, Christine is no longer here. I assumed she would have me restart the things that she had me stop once I had raised my B2 level and have done so. I have not started the milk thistle because the B2 related protocol was supposed to help my liver, so I am waiting on the latest test results to see if it did.

I had a blood test that showed high ALT enzymes. I am assuming that means fatty liver. I have not had a CAT scan.

 

[AFCFS]

I had a blood test that showed high ALT enzymes. I am assuming that means fatty liver. I have not had a CAT scan.

Just read Could a Fatty Liver Cause Elevated Liver Enzymes? from livestrong.com, if it helps:

Cause
Damage to the liver causes ALT and AST to leak into the blood in larger than normal quantities, but damage to other tissues can also cause elevated levels, particularly of AST, in the blood. But strenuous exercise can also raise AST levels three-fold and ALT by 20 percent. Liver enzymes also average 40 to 50 percent higher than normal in obese patients.

Classifications
Medical practitioners generally consider levels up to five times higher than normal to be a mild increase in liver enzymes. While NASH is the most common cause of mild elevations in liver enzymes, medications, viral hepatitis, autoimmune hepatitis and other disorders can also cause the rise. Liver enzymes 15 times higher than normal, over 1,000 International Units per liter normally occur in acute hepatitis, poisoning with acetaminophen or other toxic medications or decreased blood flow to the liver, also called ischemic liver or shock liver. Elevations 100 times higher than normal levels occur from medication overdose or ischemic liver injury.

Of course there is a slew of information with a Google search of alt ast fatty liver.

 

[Uno]

Hi guys

My liver enzymes (GGT, ALT, AST) are around three times over normal. I have been diagnosed with Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis and am very very sick. Be careful with the liver, if there are signs that it is cirrhotic, then it can deteriorate very quickly. My mums entire left lobe died from cirrhosis in three months and she nearly died. Liver conditions need follow up and close monitoring by a specialist. The chances of you having PSC or having this happen to your liver are pretty remote as it's a pretty rare condition so don't worry, just stay alert. x

 

[Little Bluestem]

AFCFS, I certainly don't exercise strenuously and am not obese, so that eliminates a couple of the possibilities.

 

[AFCFS]

AFCFS, I certainly don't exercise strenuously and am not obese, so that eliminates a couple of the possibilities.

Glad to hear that. I get confused over the issues and lack of baseline - I had exercised what I considered moderately (90 minutes of bike riding about 5 days/week) and had dropped about 20 lbs over about 3 months, which was trending toward a comfortable weight, then bang! - could not get out of bed. And then massive carb cravings and a 30 lb gain in about a month - unreal. So, am not sure where the fatty liver came into play. Just the fact that the doc thinks it can start to reverse in 3 months time tells me it might not take that long to get there in the first place. Just a general statement, but it seems like things that take time to occur, also take take time to heal.

 

[AFCFS]

Hi guys

My liver enzymes (GGT, ALT, AST) are around three times over normal. I have been diagnosed with Primary Sclerosing Cholangitis and am very very sick. Be careful with the liver, if there are signs that it is cirrhotic, then it can deteriorate very quickly. My mums entire left lobe died from cirrhosis in three months and she nearly died. Liver conditions need follow up and close monitoring by a specialist. The chances of you having PSC or having this happen to your liver are pretty remote as it's a pretty rare condition so don't worry, just stay alert. x

Can you say kind of specialist she saw/you see? I was reading it should be a specialized gastroenterologists or hepatologist but was not sure at what point one would deviate from the care of a primary to one of these.

 

[Uno]

yes am under University College Hospital in London now. I basically got sicker and sicker and was in and out of hospital with massive infections of the biliary tract, I got very sick, still am very sick. My mum has PSC as well so we know what is what, my GP referred me to her consultant. I don't know really. I'd see someone if the enzymes are that high to be on the safe side.