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"it is legitimate to hold scientists to account" (Guardian news article)

snowathlete

Senior Member
Messages
5,374
Location
UK
Really, the GET approach is the quickest and surest way to get crippled by this disease, often permanently.

True in my case.
There was not good evidence for me to have been prescribed this, and yet I was, and the person who prescribed it is not accountable for it. But they should be because it was recklessly prescribed despite the lack of good evidence and the conflicting evidence at the time.
I think thats pretty scary, because you dont know whether a health preofesional is prescribing for you bassed on real evidence or something without foundation. Same with these scientists, from what i have read of the case (and it may be inaccurate) they made assurances, but they werent in a position to make them as there was not enough evidence to back them up. That is why they are in trouble, but i feel sorry for them, to a point, because it is a very new thing to get in trouble in this way. Usually, as a scientist, same as with medicine, you can say what you like usually and stand behind the fact that it is your personal medical opinion. Which i dont think is acceptable when these decisions cost lives.
 

urbantravels

disjecta membra
Messages
1,333
Location
Los Angeles, CA
I think we know better than most about how stupid most journalism about science is. Of course the headline "Scientists jailed for failing to predict earthquake" is totally wrong and misleading, but it's shocking and attention-grabbing, which is generally what matters to media outlets.

I think this article gives a good overview of what actually happened:

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight...rthquake-convictions-about-poor-communication

But in wiretap transcripts made public halfway through the trial, it became clear that the meeting had been part of a “media operation” to calm the population and was never intended to be a real scientific evaluation. We want “to calm down the public,” De Bernardis said the day before the meeting. “And instead of you and me . . . we’ll have the top scientists in the field of seismology talking.”

The message de Bernardis presented at the press conference was far more reassuring than it should have been based on what he and the commission knew and didn’t know. The scientists, two of whom sat through the press conference and said nothing and four of whom went home, colluded, therefore, in the delivery of a falsely reassuring message.

It seems to me that what the scientists and the official (de Bernardis) did was highly unethical and unprofessional. Lots of blame to go around. I'd say somewhat more blame attaches to the public officials, who decided in advance that "reassuring the public" was the highest priority. The scientists, by playing along with this staged press conference, were in serious breach of professional ethics. They didn't get convicted of "not predicting an earthquake" but of "pretending they knew the risks when in fact they did not."

However, it still seems strange that this led to criminal charges against the individual scientists and de Bernardis. I don't know enough about the law in the US and certainly nothing about Italian law, but it seems like in the US this would have been a very hard criminal case to make...but there could have been civil suits galore. Not to mention, of course, all these guys getting fired from their jobs, stripped of their professional credentials, etc.
 

Jarod

Senior Member
Messages
784
Location
planet earth
I would want to discourage any punishment that prevents scientists from speaking anytime they see fit.

I see the potential for this type of punishment from preventing free speech. That is the key point for me.

There is a point when good judgement must come in to play. I think simply firing them for incompetance may make more sense than jail time.

Possible slippery slope here.
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
I think this article gives a good overview of what actually happened:

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight...rthquake-convictions-about-poor-communication

Thanks for the link, Urban.

The article suggests that the Italian case revolves around the public officials putting out a purposely misleading public statement that was intended to calm the public. It says that's why they were prosecuted. Nothing to do with honest scientific opinions, or making a scientific error, etc.
 

Jarod

Senior Member
Messages
784
Location
planet earth
I'd give you a like Bob, But looks like you just hit a 1000 likes! THat's a nice round number. Congrats!

This would really be great if it shows accountability of government officials for misleading public opinion. That's what it seems like at the moment.

Be interesting to see if it turns in to a positive trend. :)
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
The CDC has just stated in an interview with Mindy Kitei that they believe the CFS toolkit is accurate and will not be removing it: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/cdc-interview-on-the-cfs-toolkit.20092/

They are in the process of modifying it, but I don't hold much hope it will be fit for purpose afterward. Given that the probable consequence of their toolkit is poor medical practice with poor outcomes for patients, how is it they are not accountable? What can be done to change this? They too have a requirement to accurately provide information to prevent harm and help people.
 

urbantravels

disjecta membra
Messages
1,333
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Here's a bit of a development: new information released from a wiretap on someone higher up, i.e., De Bernardinis' boss.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22439-bugged-phone-deepens-controversy-over-italian-quake.html

In the recording, translated here, Bertolaso says: "I told him [De Bernardinis] to schedule a meeting in L'Aquila about this story of this swarm quake[…] to immediately silence any imbecile's allegations, concerns and so on." He continues: "That is a media operation, you understand? So they, […] the leading experts of earthquakes, they will say: it is normal, these are phenomena that often occur, it is better to have one hundred shocks of the 4th grade on the Richter scale rather than silence, because one hundred shocks release energy and so there will never be a shock that really hurts."

Later in the recording Bertolaso adds: "And also say that the meeting is organised not because we are scared and worried, but because we want to reassure the people. And instead of you and me talking to the population, we make the top scientists in the field of seismology talk."