High 5-MTHF in cell.

[wkl01]

I have high 5-MTHF levels in the cell. Theoretically this would mean that MTHFR and/or MS and/or MTRR don't function. My SNP's support these possibilities, see below. But I was already supplementing with iron and B12 when the test was taken (B12 levels >1000, ref. 350-750).

My wife also has this and has CFS. We both have HHV-5.

This is from my Yasko Panel:
+/+ MAO A; BHMT 8
+/- MTRR H595Y, K350A, 11; COMT V158M, H62H; VDR Fok; ACE Del16; MTHFR C677T, A1298C; BHMT 2, 4; AHCY 1, 2, 19; CBS A360A; SHMT C1420T

Any other suggestions about how to lower 5-MTHF and what's wrong? I feel that I can't take more B12, because that causes low back pain which I think means I 'm dosing too high. And my B12 blood levels are already high enough.

 

[globalpilot]

What type of B12 ?

 

[wkl01]

The last weeks before the blood test I used cyanocobalamine, but more than a whole year before I used methylcobalamin (and that's when I get low back pain if I use more than 1000mcg a day).

 

[globalpilot]

The methylcobalamin could be why your MTHf is high. Normally the MTHF gives a methyl group to B12 and that results in methylcobalmin which is used in the methionine cycle to create methionine out of homocysteine. But if you take methylcobalamin there is no need to take teh methyl group from the MTHF so it builds up. I think that's a good guess as to what has happened. I took methylb12 as well and it caused my methionine, SAM and SAH to go well above normal. If you take hydroxycobalmin instead you should see that MTHF go down if what I suggested is what is going on.

 

[Sushi]

.... And my B12 blood levels are already high enough.

B12 Blood tests are not very meaningful. You can test high and still be deficient because they do not separate the different forms of B12 in the test and the results can be high due to inactive forms that the body cannot use.

Sushi

 

[wkl01]

The methylcobalamin could be why your MTHf is high. Normally the MTHF gives a methyl group to B12 and that results in methylcobalmin which is used in the methionine cycle to create methionine out of homocysteine. But if you take methylcobalamin there is no need to take teh methyl group from the MTHF so it builds up. I think that's a good guess as to what has happened. I took methylb12 as well and it caused my methionine, SAM and SAH to go well above normal. If you take hydroxycobalmin instead you should see that MTHF go down if what I suggested is what is going on.

When you asked me what type of B12 I am using, I figured this out too. But, I took cyanocobalamin the last month before the blood test, no methylB12. And my wife, who doesn't use any supplements also has high 5-MTHF. In her case there's no methylgroup from mB12 which could cause high 5-MTHF.
I'm not saying you can't be wright, I am just a bit sceptical.

B12 Blood tests are not very meaningful. You can test high and still be deficient because they do not separate the different forms of B12 in the test and the results can be high due to inactive forms that the body cannot use.

Sushi

True, but with the levels >1000, ref. 350-750 I think there should be enough of the wright kind.

Can anyone confirm that too much B12 causes hernia-like feelings in the lower back? I get that too from too low B12.

 

[globalpilot]

Here in Canada, the B12 test measures only cyanocobalamin. Do you know what type is tested in your area ?
Did you do the full methylation panel in order to get the MTHF result ? Maybe some of the other results could shed some light.

 

[wkl01]

I'm not sure about what type is tested, I will ask about that.
No, I didn't do a full methylation panel.

I have a lot of peroxynitrite, which means I have low BH4. Which is strange considering the high 5-MTHF, so I think MTHFR isn't functioning normal. In part I can explain that because of the polymorphism, but I think it got much worse the last couple of years, so there's more going on.
I tried adding B2, which seems to do me good for 2 days. B2 is also needed for MSR and MTHFR, so that would be an explanation. After 2 days, I noticed a greater need for P5P which I can explain because of a greater need because it's needed to make serotonin and dopamin (because of more methylation and/or BH4 there's a higher production of serotonin and dopamin). B2 and B6 deficiencies are know in oxidative stress, so that would make sense.
But then what? I'm thinking NADH deficiency. That's also needed for MTHFR and for recycling BH2 to BH4.
But why NADH deficiency? Also oxidative stress?
And then? Is there something else I'm missing?

What's strange, is that my wife, my father and myself have high 5-MTHF. My wife and I have HHV-5. Could this be related?
I tried anti-candida protocol (including very low carb).
Stimulating BHMT does good, but doesn't solve low serotonin.

 

[wkl01]

Globalpilot, I got my blood test and I was wrong and you might be wright. My B2 and B6 are on the upper normal level.
You wrote that your methionine, SAM and SAH were high when using mB12. How was your homocysteine than? Mine is low normal.

I am looking for hydroxycobalamin tabs, but I can't find them. Do you know a brand that sells the hydroxy?

 

[globalpilot]

Darn, I didnt get my homocysteine tested when I did the SAM, SAH but I did get my cysteine measured and it was low.
Yes, you can get the Perque brand of hyroxycobalamin. That is what Rich recommended and I think others have reported success. It is sublingual.

Globalpilot, I got my blood test and I was wrong and you might be wright. My B2 and B6 are on the upper normal level.
You wrote that your methionine, SAM and SAH were high when using mB12. How was your homocysteine than? Mine is low normal.

I am looking for hydroxycobalamin tabs, but I can't find them. Do you know a brand that sells the hydroxy?

rox

 

[wkl01]

Rox,

Above you can see my SNP's. I was having methylation issues and I'm still having low BH4 (high peroxynitrite).
I think that taking PS supports BHMT in a way that I have enough methylation. So I think low BH4 is my priority. It causes oxidative stress which (I think) is the cause of many illnesses in my mothers family (related to blood vessels and neurotransmitters being low).
On the Yasko site, they recommend people with my SHMT to take folinic acid for proper gut flora. I can understand that, because that would cause high aluminium which would lower BH4 too.

I'm now thinking about the following and I could use your input on this:
If I would take folinic acid, I would perhaps inhibit the MTHFR reverse reaction.
I have enough 5-MTHF (and if I got it down with hydroxyB12, I could supplement 5-MTHF), I can make folinic acid myself. In that reverse reaction of MTHFR, which is inhibited by my SNP, I could recycle qBH2->BH4 which would benefit me also.

If I would take hydroxyB12 (I am now taking mB12 anyway), I would support methylation and lower 5-MTHF. But do I really want that if that wouldn't help raising my BH4?
Is it really necessary to support MS (the long way of the methylation cycle) when I've got BHMT working?

Wim

 

[wkl01]

What's a reliable and cheap internet store, where I can buy the Perque B12, which ships international? I can't buy it here in Europe.

 

[wkl01]

Rox,

Just wanted to let you know I ordered (finally) the perque B12 (from US). I'll let you know here if I notice anything.
Rich recommended 2000mcg daily, but what would be the upper dose (after starting on the 2000mcg and slowly moving up)?

Wim

 

[Valentijn]

Rich recommended 2000mcg daily, but what would be the upper dose (after starting on the 2000mcg and slowly moving up)?

My doc wanted me taking at least 4000mcg daily, and some days I took more if being too active, etc, to help with pain and OI a bit.