Insomnia Rant Part Two/Phosphatidylserine

[heapsreal]

Been having a bad run of sleep of late. Now to what seems to be helping. I ordered some phosphatisylserine(PS) from a bulk powder supplier which makes this stuff alot cheaper as its quite expensive for a supp when its already capped.

I order 25 grams of PS, now a 1/4 tsp supposedly equals 250mg of PS which is how i was measuring it out, but i dont think its that accurate. I capped all my pills the other day and afterwards had 50 caps after using all 25grams, so i think my caps are about 500mg in strength which is quite strong.

I have used PS before in much lower doses and it did help some but its not one of my main supps, so normally when i run out i dont reorder it again for awhile. SO with crappy sleep being the norm it was time to order more. PS is suppose to help lower cortisol, supports cognitive function, enhances memory and thinking etc a good brain nutrient. My reason for buying this is for its cortisol lowering effects.

Many of us that have the tired wired type cfs/me i think may have an inappropriate cortisol response, not higher enough throughout the day to give us alot of energy and too high at night for us to sleep properly.

The last 3 nights i have used PS 500mg a night, its not sedating in its self but i think stops any excitory effects of cortisol?? I have been taking my usual meds which is an antihistamine and zopiclone 7.5mg which i have been taking during this crappy sleep cycle of late with little help. The last 3 nights i have been getting great sleep, sleeping right through the night. Been waking alittle groogy but thats alot better then no sleep at all.

It makes such a difference in how i feel getting a good nights sleep. Buying it in bulk powder makes it alot more affordable and i think i may just have to keep this as one of my main supps. Its been 3 nights and im really suprised at how effective it has been, just hope it continues to work.

cheers!!!

 

[Sallysblooms]

I am so glad that helps you. Have you tried Kavinase? I have some just in case but have never opened it.

 

[heapsreal]

Havent tried kavinace but have tried similar ingredients, the main one is phenibut, i think they use the chemical name on the label of kavinace. Phenibut it quite good but get a tolerance to it quick. I actually have some phenibut i just ordered, havent used it in awhile and going to try it tonight. Probably try and use it no more then twice a week to avoid tolerance to it.

I just hope the PS keeps working, insomnia is my biggest neuro issue, if i can crack that im doing well.

cheers!!!

 

[Sallysblooms]

Yes, I really hope you can start to get sleep! I know it has Phenibut but I didn't know a lot about it. I did read a bit. I just have it in case I ever need it.

 

[August59]

A large dose such as what you are taking could be boosting the health of your mitochondria. All of the phospholipids are used in the mitochondria to some extent.

 

[ukxmrv]

Heaps, have you had your cortisol levels taken?

It was said when CFS patients were taking Seriphos years ago that it lowered cortisol at night. I took it to try and reset my sleep pattern (normally awake at nights) and found that I was so groggy the next day that I couldn't function at all. It got worse the more I took it. Tried different times and doses. I suspect that it was lowering my already very low morning cortisol.

Saliva tests showed early cortisol for me very low. No high at night but moderate in afternoon.

Now keep it as a "one off" when I can't sleep at all (and very happy to have it in my collection)

Hope it continues for you as wonderful when we find something that helps!

 

[heapsreal]

Heaps, have you had your cortisol levels taken?

It was said when CFS patients were taking Seriphos years ago that it lowered cortisol at night. I took it to try and reset my sleep pattern (normally awake at nights) and found that I was so groggy the next day that I couldn't function at all. It got worse the more I took it. Tried different times and doses. I suspect that it was lowering my already very low morning cortisol.

Saliva tests showed early cortisol for me very low. No high at night but moderate in afternoon.

Now keep it as a "one off" when I can't sleep at all (and very happy to have it in my collection)

Hope it continues for you as wonderful when we find something that helps!

You might be right ukxmrv, maybe why i wake up abit groggy, but it doesnt last long for me, its better then no sleep. Today i added the pregnenolone again after a week off to help morning cortisol. Today i feel good. We will see how tonight goes. Lets say im in an adjusting period while i try and alter my morning and night cortisol. It might be something i use intermittently as my crappy sleep seems to come and go in cycles, maybe use PS to cut the bad cycles off at the crossing.

Normally my morning cortisol is low normal. previous saliva test has showed my night cortisol is higher then it should be too.

 

[heapsreal]

I took half of my normal dose last night, 250mg and slept ok, not as deep as when i took 500mg but didnt wake up as groggy either. Also 2 hours after being asleep last night i got woken by the cat that had sneaked inside so i put the putty tatt out, normally that would be the end of my sleep unless i took another sleeping pill but i was able to go to sleep ok. The last couple of hours of my sleep were abit broken but its alot better then it normally would be.

Im going to keep playing with both doses, maybe the larger dose when i dont have to get up. Also last night i took the PS about 4 hours before i went to sleep, maybe need to take it with sleep meds just before i turn in. Sleep quality is definately better then what it has been for a long time even though i still need sleep meds, im may look at cutting these back soon if i can keep sleeping well.

 

[heapsreal]

Effects of soy lecithin phosphatidic acid and phosphatidylserine complex (PAS) on the endocrine and psychological responses to mental stress.

Hellhammer J, Fries E, Buss C, Engert V, Tuch A, Rutenberg D, Hellhammer D.
Source

Neuropattern, Trier, Germany. juliane.hellhammer@uni-trier.de
Abstract

Phosphatidylserine, derived from cow brains, has been shown previously to dampen the ACTH and cortisol response to physical stress. Further research investigated the influence of soy lecithin phosphatidylserine supplementation on mood and heart rate when faced with an acute stressor. In this study, we investigated the effects of soy lecithin phosphatidic acid and phosphatidylserine complex (PAS) supplementation on pituitary adrenal reactivity (ACTH, cortisol) and on the psychological response (Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory stress subscale) to a mental and emotional stressor. Four groups of 20 subjects were treated for three weeks with daily dosages of either 400 mg PAS, 600 mg PAS, 800 mg PAS, or placebo before exposure to the Trier Social Stress Test (TSST). Treatment with 400 mg PAS resulted in a pronounced blunting of both serum ACTH and cortisol, and salivary cortisol responses to the TSST, but did not affect heart rate. The effect was not seen with larger doses of PAS. With regard to the psychological response, 400 mg PAS seemed to exert a specific positive effect on emotional responses to the TSST. While the placebo group showed the expected increase in distress after the test, the group treated with 400 mg PAS showed decreased distress. These data provide initial evidence for a selective stress dampening effect of PAS on the pituitary-adrenal axis, suggesting the potential of PAS in the treatment of stress related disorders.
PMID:
15512856
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[heapsreal]

Find out how to access preview-only content

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European Journal of Clinical Pharmacology
April 1992, Volume 42, Issue 4, pp 385-388
Blunting by chronic phosphatidylserine administration of the stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in healthy men

• P. Monteleone,
• M. Maj,
• L. Beinat,
• M. Natale,
• D. Kemali

Look InsideGet Access
Summary

The effect of chronic administration of phosphatidylserine derived from brain cortex on the neuroendocrine responses to physical stress has been examined in a placebo-controlled study in 9 healthy men.
Phosphatidylserine 800 mg/d for 10 days significantly blunted the ACTH and cortisol responses to physical exercise (P=0.003 and P=0.03, respectively), without affecting the rise in plasma GH and PRL.
Physical exercise significantly increased the plasma lactate concentration both after placebo and phosphatidylserine.
The results suggest that chronic oral administration of phosphatidylserine may counteract stress-induced activation of the hypothalamo-pituitary-adrenal axis in man

 

[ukxmrv]

Rich had PS in one of the early versions of his Methylisation protocol I think and then replaced it as people were finding that their morning cortisol levels were affected. I think he replaced it with plain lethicin. The CFS doctor I saw in about 1999 (when I did my first cortisol test) was using lethicin at night on his patients.

 

[heapsreal]

interesting,maybe PS is suitable for tired wired types with inverted cortisol production. So i suppose it depends on symptoms and cortisol testing??

 

[xks201]

Well from what I have read it is good for anyone. Low cortisol or high cortisol - it is sort of like an adaptogen apparently...repairing cortisol receptors in the hypothalamus. Sounds like something I need considering I can tolerate HUGE amounts of hydrocortisone or any cortisol analogue. Most people I know get a rush off 20mg. I can take 80mg and feel nothing sometimes. lol Definitely gonna check this out. I had adrenal insufficiency for a long time I think and so maybe my receptors and what have you need some repairing. We will test the theory...I could see this being one of the top supplements for us though...along with perhaps something for hypovolemia if there is OI involved like desmopressin.

 

[ukxmrv]

PS didn't do anything to make my low cortisol morning better xks201. My morning symptoms got worse and worse.

Maybe in PWME there is something else at play rather then cortisol receptors?

Traditionally it's been used by patients with high cortisol at night. The tired but wired group seem to use this. Never heard of a good response from the low cortisol group.

Other info would be good if you find it.

 

[camas]

About 18 months ago my doctor had me do a saliva cortisol test expecting that I would be low overall when, in fact, I was high in the middle of the night and within normal ranges the rest of the day. I've been taking Seriphos (90mg) for some time, but didn't know if it was really helping. When I went off recently, I found myself waking up in the middle of the night quite wired. So I'm back on. Good to know it can be bought in bulk, too. When this bottle runs out, I may go that route.

 

[heapsreal]

PS didn't do anything to make my low cortisol morning better xks201. My morning symptoms got worse and worse.

Maybe in PWME there is something else at play rather then cortisol receptors?

Traditionally it's been used by patients with high cortisol at night. The tired but wired group seem to use this. Never heard of a good response from the low cortisol group.

Other info would be good if you find it.

my morning cortisol generally is low for which i supplement pregnenolone which helps with low cortisol so using PS and pregnenolone is to try and shift my sleep/cortisol rythm to what should be normal, high in morning and tapering off until night time, hopefully.

Maybe some can benefit from using it intermittently to avoid lowering morning cortisol too much or maybe using much low PS doses could be the secret. i think theres not only short term effects but also long term positive effects from it, i hope.

cheers!!!

 

[ukxmrv]

Thanks Heaps, the Pregnenolene / PS combo could be useful for others. I'll give it a try myself sometime when the sleep problems get out of hand as have both somewhere!

 

[heapsreal]

Thanks Heaps, the Pregnenolene / PS combo could be useful for others. I'll give it a try myself sometime when the sleep problems get out of hand as have both somewhere!

preg in the moring and PS at night. i have heard preg transdermal creams are best for preg. Preg at night could keep u awake and dose low like 5-10mg at first and slowly increase. im finding 30mg enough for me at moment

 

[xks201]

I'm on replacement HC so I was curious if maybe I could use less HC with it.

 

[heapsreal]

I'm on replacement HC so I was curious if maybe I could use less HC with it.

Try it, if u use PS at night it wont interfere with day time dosing much????