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SPECT Brain Imaging in Chronic Lyme Disease

redo

Senior Member
Messages
874
Wow I clicked on this thread and had NO idea it was about Lyme... As I read through all of these posts I just become so ANGRY, SAD and every other emotion! We are all like rats running around in a maze tryin to find the cheese...we know it is there - but we just can't find it because there are no signs or directions!! We are all SICK and want so badly to get well and spend HOURS on these dang computers searching throught the piles of info trying to find out why we are sick.

Reading the study I find it pretty much about ME as well as lyme. There's no proof that the patients in the study were suffering from a active borrelia infection. Rather, it seems to me that the lyme (after the acute infection is gone) kick starts ME symptoms, just like giardiasis and mononucleosis can do. The patients get better with treatment, and they didn't have to have a positive lyme test to begin with. I think it's immune modulation via some pathway (e.g. via effects on the endothelium or the gut flora) which brings about the symptom alleviation when given the biaxin/plaquenil. A clue as for what's causing the symptom improvement, is that most patients relapse when they are off the antibiotics...

RA patients also often times get better from plaquenil.
 

RustyJ

Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'
Messages
1,200
Location
Mackay, Aust
Here is an abstract of a study from 1982 that discusses the antiviral activity found in antibiotic producing marine bacteria. The authors of this study are Alicia E. Toranzo, Juan L. Barja, Frank M. Hetrick and it was published in the Canadian Journal of Microbiology, 1982, 28(2): 231-238, 10.1139/m82-031.

"The stability of poliovirus 1 in estuarine water and sediment was examined. The present data indicated that a 2 log reduction in virus titer at 15 °C occurred within 6–7 days in water samples taken from estuarine waters on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. The antiviral effect decreased significantly when the seawater was subjected to autoclaving but not when it was filtered. That the antiviral activity of the seawater was related to the growth activities of microorganisms was corroborated by the isolation of antibiotic-producing marine bacteria that had marked activity against poliovirus (net inactivation ≥ 2 logs within 6–8 days). These organisms retained this activity following repeated subcultivation on laboratory media. Since comparable inactivation rates were observed in cell-free filtrates from these marine strains, extracellular products appear to be involved in the virus-inactivation process. Other enteric viruses, Coxsackie B-5 and ECHO-6, were also inactivated by these marine bacteria. The addition of sediment to natural seawater increased the length of poliovirus survival more than three times over that in seawater alone. However, this was not found under sterile conditions, suggesting that the sediment can protect the viruses from inactivation by the marine microflora."
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/m82-031?journalCode=cjm#citart1

Can antibiotic producing marine bacteria also produce antiviral properties? If yes, isn't it possible for certain antibiotics to also have some type of antiviral action?

I am not sure I understand all that this paper says, but is it really saying salt water may be just as good as an antibiotic for some pathogen treatment? If some patients have enteric pathogens as a primary or secondary cause then simply drinking highly salted water as a therapy may provide improvement. I think the salt water protocol would have been discussed before on this forum. It is a somewhat controversial treatment, but this paper seems to suggest it has merit.
 

anciendaze

Senior Member
Messages
1,841
...Can antibiotic producing marine bacteria also produce antiviral properties? If yes, isn't it possible for certain antibiotics to also have some type of antiviral action?
More than simply possible, doxycycline and minocycline definitely do have some antiviral activity. Even stranger fluoxetine (Prozac) strongly inhibits coxsackie-B in vitro. I now believe most SSRIs have some antiviral activity. This leads me to question just what we are treating.

I first became suspicious when I read reports of some patients with very recent onset schizophrenia recovering after treatment with minocycline. Even when you stretch the idea of recent onset to three years you can still find unusual antibodies in that disease. Doxycycline even has an effect on plasmodium falciparum, making it an antimalarial. When the same drug can be an antibiotic, antiviral, antiretroviral and antiparasitical agent it is really hard to figure out what problem it might be correcting in patients.
 

Jacque

Senior Member
Messages
424
Location
USA - California
More than simply possible, doxycycline and minocycline definitely do have some antiviral activity. Even stranger fluoxetine (Prozac) strongly inhibits coxsackie-B in vitro. I now believe most SSRIs have some antiviral activity. This leads me to question just what we are treating.

I first became suspicious when I read reports of some patients with very recent onset schizophrenia recovering after treatment with minocycline. Even when you stretch the idea of recent onset to three years you can still find unusual antibodies in that disease. Doxycycline even has an effect on plasmodium falciparum, making it an antimalarial. When the same drug can be an antibiotic, antiviral, antiretroviral and antiparasitical agent it is really hard to figure out what problem it might be correcting in patients.
Well..... that makes complete sense to me... I have Lyme, 4 active Viruses, and Protomyxoia parasite... When I take Doxycycline I get SO sick I almost go to the ER... and I become extremely suicidal! My brain swells and I get all symptoms of meningitis. Consequently I don't treat the Lyme. It is just so difficult to go from feeling like complete CRAP to wanting to DIE... Thanks for info.
 

Jacque

Senior Member
Messages
424
Location
USA - California
I am not sure I understand all that this paper says, but is it really saying salt water may be just as good as an antibiotic for some pathogen treatment? If some patients have enteric pathogens as a primary or secondary cause then simply drinking highly salted water as a therapy may provide improvement. I think the salt water protocol would have been discussed before on this forum. It is a somewhat controversial treatment, but this paper seems to suggest it has merit.

Wow I have to read this on a less BRAIN DEAD day... but I do know there is a protocol for Lyme of Salt and Vit C and I have also heard or taking up surfing being a miracle for some.... hmmmmmmmm?
 

SilverbladeTE

Senior Member
Messages
3,043
Location
Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
Jaque,
ah ha! so it's true we are...THE WALKING DEAD! :p

left-4-dead-poster.jpg
 

Jacque

Senior Member
Messages
424
Location
USA - California
Thank you for your reply justinreilly.

Although I wouldn't mind if a live bacteria would be the problem, I think there's too many ifs and buts that it all adds up.

With the PCR technique they can't find the bacteria in chronic cases on a reliable basic. Nor with the standard antibody tests. When treating for CLD for years and years, people get better (but rarely well) and often times relapse once the antibiotics are lifted - indicating immune modulation or other mechanisms rather than antibacterial activity.

I think there are slight chances that because of mechanisms such as hiding in biofilms and going into cyst phases, there is a chance, albeit small, that a persisting bacteria is the problem. But given the symptoms being pretty much identical with those of ME, and also the sum of small and large observations from within the lyme world for almost a decade, I'd really put my chips on lyme being just another trigger to ME, just like giardisis, just like mononucleosis. The big question is what gets triggered. If it indeed is a RNA virus, then the virus must lie latent in many healthy people, and burst out once the trigger sets it off. Which in turn would have implications for the RNA virus studies, since the most likely outcome, if it indeed is a RNA virus at the core of this, is that it's prevalent also in the healthy controls.

That said, many if not most who embark on a treatment course for CLD gets better. In the Donta study which this article is about, they didn't exclude people with CFS from the study. If someone has excess energy to do it, then asking Donta if the patients with CFS in his study improved like the rest would be a good and useful question.

I have been on lyme treatment for years, and it has really turned so much to the better, so if anyone feels for doing the same, I'd think it's a good idea. At the same time, I wouldn't be so certain that it's actually the lyme bacteria which gets treated, and it rather be that it's immunemodulating effects, either directly or through influences on levels of various bacteria in the flora of the gut - or other mechanisms. Little is known about why they work, and hopefully this study will spark interest to find out why.

The fact that there weren't any differences in how the seronegative and seropositive reacted also fits into the picture of this perhaps not being a live bacteria, but rather «something» has been triggered by the borrelia infection.
Makes complete sense!!! Curious to hear what you are doing for your Lyme Treatment???
 

Jacque

Senior Member
Messages
424
Location
USA - California
Without the benefit of reading the full study, I think the significance of this study is that it offers a good means of quantifying the progress of treating lyme (and me/cfs) with antibiotics.

I don't think the scans provide lyme or me/cfs causality (abnormal perfusion etc could be caused by another pathogen altogether, perhaps even an opportunistic pathogen), but they do prove quantifiable physical changes to be achieved by using antibiotics for a large proportion of those with an me/cfs or lyme diagnosis.

The significance of this for me/cfs? Irrespective of the cause of me/cfs, many of those who have been diagnosed with me/cfs may also receive a diagnosis of lyme, and vice versa. We are not talking about a small cohort here, but something in the nature of about 75% from at least one previous study.

There is as yet no indication the improvements are permanent, which would support the notion that the brain abnormalities were caused by the primary agent or pathogen.
The book: Betrayal of the Brain is very interesting and pointed in this direction altho I cannot find a Doc who will experiment with his theories... Of course the MD RETIRED...AFTER writing the book... grrrrr
 

redo

Senior Member
Messages
874
Makes complete sense!!! Curious to hear what you are doing for your Lyme Treatment???
I'm on Biaxin and amoxicillin (and metronidazole on and off). Without it I wouldn't be able to come to these boards and post even on occation. Interestingly enough my own experiences coincide with the ones in the study: Biaxin (in combination) works best. Tetracycline, doxycycline and ceftriaxone, works not so well.

What I really think we can take from the study, is that the people with CFS responds just as well to the antibiotics as people with CLD. And it's no surprise, take a look at what CLD really is, it's ME/CFS symptoms which comes post an infection. And IMO, it doesn't really matter if the trigger is EBV, giardia or Borrelia.

One could wonder if what's seen in the antibiotics study on CFS and CLD patients by Donta is merely a placebo effect. To that I have three comments:

1) If it was a placebo effect, one wouldn't expect that the people given the different antibiotics responded significantly differently (since a pill is a pill). Except for the antibiotic given intravenously, were one would expect a better placebo effect. But in fact, the group given the intravenous ceftriaxone performed poorly.

2) The patients doesn't simply say they get better, one can see it on the SPECT scans. This rules out patients simply assuming/thinking that the treatment has worked, and responding accordingly when asked about their symptoms.

3) A large study was done on people with ME symptoms post an infection (read: chronic lyme) and they found the following about placebo effects treating that group: Among the seropositive patients who were treated with antibiotics, there was improvement in the score on the physical-component summary scale of the SF-36, the mental-component summary scale, or both in 37 percent, no change in 29 percent, and worsening in 34 percent; among seropositive patients receiving placebo, there was improvement in 40 percent, no change in 26 percent, and worsening in 34 percent (P=0.96 for the comparison between treatment groups). The results were similar for the seronegative patients. So, using the antibiotics ceftriaxone and doxycycline (antibiotics which performed poorly in Donta's study) they found out that they didn't have a effect better than a placebo effect. In Donta's study other antibiotics (plaquenil/clarithromycin) have a great effect, and the ones expected to not perform better than a placebo (ceftriaxone/doxycycline) didn't do so well.

Since the patients tend to relapse once off antibiotics, I think what we're seeing in the Donta study on CFS and CLD is an immune modulating effect from the antibiotics. Both clarithromycin and plaquenil are known to modulate the immune system... And this is good news for ME patients, since it means they'll have the odds on their side if they decide to give it a go. From my experience, 2-3 months in, one would except a major symptom alleviation.
 

Jacque

Senior Member
Messages
424
Location
USA - California
Well... I am gonna keep this all in mind. Dr. Kogelnik is not in ANY way on board with Antibiotic treatment for the CLD... and I cannot intelligently convey to you why he feels this way. He basically said it is not dealing with the immune dysfunction and there are so many relapses etc. But then again ... seems to me that that is true with all treatments available to us lab rats currently... sigh
 

Xandoff

Michael
Messages
302
Location
Northern Vermont
Redo,

You know more on Lyme than I, but my understanding is that the Lyme bacterium my persist in people with chronic Lyme, it is just harder to detect and thus mainstream science assumes its not there.

I found out I have Lyme a few months ago after 10years of illness. I suggest everyone with ME get a good Lyme test like the one I took from Igenex. CDC says its test is 100% accurate and warns against taking PCR tests, but CDCs test actually misses 40% of cases and the PCR test is better though not perfect.
Hi Justin,

I think we used to converse on PR but I have a bad memory. I tested positive for Lyme and Babesia Duncanni , I found out the day before Christmas 2013! I know exactly when I got sick, it was 1999 (14 years ago) and I had started a new job in Massachusetts, I live in Vermont. I now travel 160 miles one way to be treated by a Doctor in Western Massachusetts. I thought, great now I have a real illness and I can get real treatment! Phoenix Rising did a good job preparing me for Lyme Disease. I TOO BELIEVE EVERYONE (who has been diagnosed with me/cfs)should get an IGENEX Test for Lyme and co-infections.