dr myhill, the brain effect, which type are you??

[mellster]

Another mystery surrounding this is why there are more inflammatory cytokines with supposedly lesser or less active NK cells - this is a paradox - who/what is secreting the cytokines then?

 

[heapsreal]

Another mystery surrounding this is why there are more inflammatory cytokines with supposedly lesser or less active NK cells - this is a paradox - who/what is secreting the cytokines then?

its the immune system thats secreting cytokines to help fight infections but i think in chronic viral infections this just keeps going on and in the long run causes more damage. At a guess, maybe nk cells just burn out, just wish the cytokines did.

 

[mellster]

Yes, but NK cells are a cytokine producers of the immune system, so if and when they burn out, cytokine levels should go down unless other non-NK immune cells continue to produce even more.

its the immune system thats secreting cytokines to help fight infections but i think in chronic viral infections this just keeps going on and in the long run causes more damage. At a guess, maybe nk cells just burn out, just wish the cytokines did.

 

[heapsreal]

some cytokines are inflammatory and some anti-inflammatory, buggered if i know which ones or how to change them, lol.
A beer at the moment seems to be modifying my cytokine storm, lol.

cheers!!!

 

[SOC]

I can't place myself in any of the categories. Nothing seems to fit quite right. I'm definitely not acetylcholine predominant or serotonin predominant, so I'm probably a mix of dopamine predominant and gaba predominant. None of the excess or deficiency characteristics, though, so I guess I'm good there at least.

RE: cytokine storms
Cytokine storms are often fatal, though, aren't they? Would we be having mini-storms, as in enough to screw us up but not enough to kill us? (Yikes, that sounds like some particularly cruel form of torture. Anybody read Small Gods?)

 

[Nielk]

I know that I have a need for more GABA. This is why I was put on Klonopin and it was helpful for a while.

 

[Sparrow]

For what it's worth, I thought it was an interesting read, and I will likely make use of the information.

I didn't see it as in any way implying that our personalities were causing or contributing to our illness, or anything remotely related to that. I do think that this illness can mess with the normal functioning of various body systems, including most definitely our neurotransmitter balance. I can see those changes in myself quite distinctly. And this was a nice additional perspective on what might be to blame for different changes. So if I'm feeling extra unusually hesitant and in need of affection one day (in a strong and unusual way that is out of character), I may explore whether I might have a bit too much serotonin that day. It's about the illness messing with your normal personality in ways that are unusual for you rather than your normal personality affecting the illness.

Not sure how much I buy into the personality traits being connected with certain neurotransmitters part, but it's fun to read like a Myers-Briggs or other personality test would be. For what it's worth, on that front I'm a very clear Acetylcholine predominant. ...Though my acetylcholine seems to be more balanced than some of the others according to their descriptions.

I found some more on this here:
http://www.formula7.com.tr/images/nutrinews/772296077.pdf
including some additional physical symptoms of deficiencies in the four neurotransmitters and more suggestions of what to do about them.

Unfortunately, my biggest problem seems to be serotonin that's too high (which makes sense given my genetics), which seems to be a tougher fix. Adding supplements is generally easier for me than figuring out how to avoid things.

 

[heapsreal]

For what it's worth, I thought it was an interesting read, and I will likely make use of the information.

I didn't see it as in any way implying that our personalities were causing or contributing to our illness, or anything remotely related to that. I do think that this illness can mess with the normal functioning of various body systems, including most definitely our neurotransmitter balance. I can see those changes in myself quite distinctly. And this was a nice additional perspective on what might be to blame for different changes. So if I'm feeling extra unusually hesitant and in need of affection one day (in a strong and unusual way that is out of character), I may explore whether I might have a bit too much serotonin that day. It's about the illness messing with your normal personality in ways that are unusual for you rather than your normal personality affecting the illness.

Not sure how much I buy into the personality traits being connected with certain neurotransmitters part, but it's fun to read like a Myers-Briggs or other personality test would be. For what it's worth, on that front I'm a very clear Acetylcholine predominant. ...Though my acetylcholine seems to be more balanced than some of the others according to their descriptions.

I found some more on this here:
http://www.formula7.com.tr/images/nutrinews/772296077.pdf
including some additional physical symptoms of deficiencies in the four neurotransmitters and more suggestions of what to do about them.

Unfortunately, my biggest problem seems to be serotonin that's too high (which makes sense given my genetics), which seems to be a tougher fix. Adding supplements is generally easier for me than figuring out how to avoid things.

Thanks for that interesting link.

cheers!!!

 

[rydra_wong]

I think this "just ask yourself" test is a little whacked. Because I would rate myself dopamine dominant, but I know for a fact I am low in ALL of these neurotransmitters. But then 11 of 13 of my neurotrnsmitters are out of whack. I am pursuing getting dopamine in range right now because I think I have dopamine responsive dystonia. You cant rely on your genes to tell you where your neurotransmitters are either...I have two COMT +/+ and yet am low dopamine. But I am a dopamine-dominant wanna-be. Don't suppose that counts?

Rydra

 

[beaverfury]

It would be impossible for neurotransmitters not to play an important role in cfs. Without them we would be an inert lump of meat. They activate receptors in the brain, gut, heart, spinal cord, nerves, muscles.

Turning their dials is one of my major cfs attack plans. If only to lessen symptoms.
I would have been a crabstick had i not taken Stablon very early on to help with HPA axis meltdown.

If you dont get hung up on the bigpharma marketing term of 'antidepressant', you can see these drugs as just molecules with effects in the body. Chemicals dont bother with mind-body distinctions the way we do.
Stablon is supposedly also good for your teeth and for asthma treatment.
http://www.tianeptine.com/periodontal-treatment.html.

Incidentally, if you go to this link, click teeth http://www.tianeptine.com/periodontal-treatment.html.
Its a weird and wonderful world folks, when a rats HPA axis can affect its teeth!
My own teeth have deteriorated markedly since getting sick. Anyone else?

Read David Pearces- Good drug guide- if you care, for marvellous information and a laugh!
http://biopsychiatry.com/

The gut is getting called 'the second brain' these days.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=gut-second-brain

'Technically known as the enteric nervous system, the second brain consists of sheaths of neurons embedded in the walls of the long tube of our gut, or alimentary canal, which measures about nine meters end to end from the esophagus to the anus. The second brain contains some 100 million neurons, more than in either the spinal cord or the peripheral nervous system, Gershon says.'

Given the two brains' commonalities, other depression treatments that target the mind can unintentionally impact the gut. The enteric nervous system uses more than 30 neurotransmitters, just like the brain, and in fact 95 percent of the body's serotonin is found in the bowels. Because antidepressant medications called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) increase serotonin levels, it's little wonder that meds meant to cause chemical changes in the mind often provoke GI issues as a side effect. Irritable bowel syndrome—which afflicts more than two million Americans—also arises in part from too much serotonin in our entrails, and could perhaps be regarded as a "mental illness" of the second brain.

My own plan is to upgrade my dopamine system with phenylalanine or deprenyl, to increase my fighting spirit, libido, lust for life. Maybe help the gut. My last brief stint with l-phenylalanine, MAO inhibitor foods and nicorettes gave me a feeling of great calm and well being. Too bad i ran out of pills and finances.
Its not an exact science but if you happen on the right combination suited to you, neurotransmitter twiddling can be
beneficial for mood, motivation, gut problems, pain management.

http://www.allianceforaddictionsolu...ing-natural-opioid-system-d-phenylalanine-dpa
The amino acid d-phenylalanine (DPA) slows the action of the enzymes-particularly carboxypeptidase A or endorphinase and enkephalinase-that degrade the endorphins. Slowing down this endorphin-reducing mechanism can diminish pain within twenty-four hours. In our clinic, we have seen pain relief occur within ten minutes after the ingestion of as little as 500mg of DPA. Our usual dose in chronic pain patients is 500-2000mg of d-phenylalanine, two to four times a day.

Theres billions of transactions going on with neurotransmitters, so nothing is simple. But strange to say, if you take
a noradrenergic you probably will feel amped up. If you take a dopaminergic you may get a lift
in motivation. Take a serotonergic and you are likely to feel calm. They can change aspects of your behaviour in a
surprising way.
The problem is that DOCTORS PUSH THE WORST SHITE!!!! They seem intent on prescribing big pharma leading stars which have life degrading side effects. SSRI's for example. Read David pearce above if you want to agree.

Do they fix PEM, POTs, fatigue problems?.. Nope! Or not in any sizeable way that ive heard of. I hope to keep twiddling anyway to improve some of the peripheral issues. That sounds a bit piss weak after ive been an apologist
for them. But I am also banking on their longterm neuroprotective and neurogenesis effects to help any areas of the brain that may be involved. ie The amygdala that Gupta implicates.

Fingers crossed

 

[alex3619]

This seems to be an attempt to map brain chemistry onto Myers-Briggs personality classification. I am an INTP, which means I am a self-driven intuitive thinker who likes to see all sides of a situation. We make great planners but bad seat of the pants decision makers or managers. In this model I would have primarily dopaminergic influences.

The problem with such models is they are very hard to prove, and Myers-Briggs remains unproven. If he can prove what he is saying that will be interesting.

I have never tried cocaine nor would I (I know too much about how bad it is) but I have tried coca-cola .. oh, wait, thats caffeine and sugar.

Bye, Alex

 

[alex3619]

I can't place myself in any of the categories. Nothing seems to fit quite right. I'm definitely not acetylcholine predominant or serotonin predominant, so I'm probably a mix of dopamine predominant and gaba predominant. None of the excess or deficiency characteristics, though, so I guess I'm good there at least.

RE: cytokine storms
Cytokine storms are often fatal, though, aren't they? Would we be having mini-storms, as in enough to screw us up but not enough to kill us? (Yikes, that sounds like some particularly cruel form of torture. Anybody read Small Gods?)

Hi SOC, its very possible to have lower grade cytokine storms. Ever had acute food poisoning? How about feeling very sick from a flu. Its not the flu virus, its our immune response that does much of that, if the virus really kicks in and takes hold it leads to severe lung complications - everything else is an immune complication, including cytokines. Bye, Alex

 

[jeffrez]

Really like that info, Heaps, and I agree with alex that it seems to tie in nicely with Myers-Briggs typology. I am strongly INTJ, with sometimes an INTP result, and feel like I was a pretty solid mix of dopamine and acetylcholine types - *before* ME/CFS. After that the picture complicates, b/c even though I have low dopamine symptoms, adding dopaminergic substances causes irritability, weird almost internally agitated depression, etc.

Not sure there's any reliable tie-in to ME/CFS, I would tend to think that getting CFS might just tend to worsen whatever predominant type you are, maybe changing the ratio relative to other "types" and thereby shifting personality a little (or maybe a lot). I think most of us probably have hypoperfusion in the frontal lobes especially, and to some extent throughout the brain in general, causing a lot of the brain fog and related concentration, memory, and other cognitive problems. But whether that is transmitter driven or from some other cause, I wonder - maybe you or alex knows - do we really know what causes that particular issue?

I think the descriptions might in some way be useful in providing a starting off point for estimating your "type" and testing the suggested foods and substances to see what happens. If a person hits on the right thing for him or herself, it could probably make a lot of difference at least in personality/mood or even cognition, if not the CFS. The more "balanced" we can make ourselves overall, possibly the better off and stronger we and our immune systems will be - which have so much interplay with our brain (our immune systems, I mean) that it's not even funny. :-o Good info, thx. :thumbsup

 

[hurtingallthetimet]

thanks for posting...i feel horrible ive not been able to come on alot i use to like helping others and talking with others with understand...but saw your post and it looks os interesting...i dont feel like reading now...too tired but hopefully will remmeber or run across it and read.

 

[jeffrez]

Good post, beaverfury! Liking the Aussie contrib here.

 

[heapsreal]

antidepressants help someone with cfs me feel better about feeling like shit, thats if they work, so can yave a place

 

[PhoenixDown]

Never bought into the Myers-Briggs crap, and I'm not buying into this either. Nothing to do with resenting personality analysis, I just don't think it's accurate. I don't clearly fit into any of the categories and quite frankly it sounds like astrology re-branded for the 21st century.

This isn't to say we won't have a more accurate of neurotransmitter's effects on personality in a hundred years time, but right now it's all hot air.

 

[alex3619]

Never bought into the Myers-Briggs crap, and I'm not buying into this either. Nothing to do with resenting personality analysis, I just don't think it's accurate. I don't clearly fit into any of the categories and quite frankly it sounds like astrology re-branded for the 21st century.

This isn't to say we won't have a more accurate of neurotransmitter's effects on personality in a hundred years time, but right now it's all hot air.

Hi PhoenixDown, as I said Myers-Briggs has never been proven, I don't think they can. This is all Jungian psychology, more or less, and he was a contemporary of Freud - and Freud was a fruitloop. Bye, Alex

 

[xks201]

This "recklessness" associated with high dopamine is a huge misconception. Dopamine is a calming chemical. If you are low in it, you will do reckless things. If your dopamine levels are good, you will be sociable, not a loner. I had a 30 minute discussion with a university professor about this just the other day in class. People who are low in dopamine will act out to get reactions out of people to stimulate their own production of dopamine.

Doctors are finding CFS patients have low dopamine.

Similarly, SSRIs actually lower serotonin levels and produce aggression.

 

[jeffrez]

This "recklessness" associated with high dopamine is a huge misconception. Dopamine is a calming chemical. If you are low in it, you will do reckless things. If your dopamine levels are good, you will be sociable, not a loner. I had a 30 minute discussion with a university professor about this just the other day in class. People who are low in dopamine will act out to get reactions out of people to stimulate their own production of dopamine.

Doctors are finding CFS patients have low dopamine.

Similarly, SSRIs actually lower serotonin levels and produce aggression.

Interesting comments. What you say about dopamine reminds me of a similar idea I've heard in relation to adrenal fatigue - namely, that people who are low adrenal will become irritable, pick fights, seek out certain kinds of stress situations, etc. in the unconscious effort to stimulate more cortisol production and release of other adrenal hormones.

I think regarding serotonin and SSRIs, the levels of serotonin drop initially on taking an SSRI because of the increased amount of 5-HT in the synapse. Once the brain adjusts to the higher levels as the new baseline, however, I believe the amount of serotonin actually increases. Maybe that is focused on certain brain regions, though, not completely sure if it's a global increase or not.