Wired!

[arx]

Hi Arx,

I watched the following presentation:

http://mthfr.net/methylation-and-mthfr-defects-presentation/2012/04/25/

Around 40 minutes into the presentation. The COMT mutation is discussed. This could be relevant for what you expirience.

Thanks for the link. On it.

If it was me, I would stop the protocol or whatever supplement you think is causing the wired feeling. Try the things that Ben Lynch mentions in the mthfr.net presentation mentioned above to slow down methylation. Let everything clear out until you're back to calm again. Then restart at a much lower dose that you can tolerate. If you're not sure what is causing the wired feeling, then restart one supplement at a time. Takes notes on your symptom so you know what is doing what.

Yes, I will do that. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[arx]

Hey,
After 3 months of titrating mb12 and methylfolate, I titrated adb12 for 15 days and now started titrating Acetyl-L-Carnitine(ALCAR) four days back. I'm facing horrible over-stimulated feelings and emotional outbursts, like on the edge and ready to blast off in some seconds. I did some reading and read about ATP and limbic system startup. A benzo didn't help at all,infact made it worse.

I need some suggestions about niacin dosage and it's working. It eats away the methyl groups right? Won't it interfere with the methylation process then?

I wanted some knowledge about overmethylation and undermethylation. As I am doing Freddd's protocol, I would like to know his/someone on his protocol to please help me understand overmethylation,undermethylation and using niacin. Can't overmethylation be perceived as startup? How does one know!!?

Thanks!

 

[Mimi]

I just stopped taking all forms of B12 for a while. It made me so wired I couldn't sleep.

Niacin uses up methyl groups and helps me sleep. See: http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm

A possible reason not to take adenosylmethylcobalamin (adoMet):
One of the alternate reactions involving CBS is the condensation of cysteine with homocysteine to form cystathionine and hydrogen sulfide (H2S).[8] H2S in the brain is produced from L-cysteine by CBS. This alternative metabolic pathway is also dependent on adoMet.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cystathionine_beta_synthase

 

[erist]

Whoa. I started the protocol with just mb12 injections and small amounts of L-MTHF and have been WIRED for 2 days. I used to take high dose cyanob12 injections with little-no effect, so quite a surprise for me. Have had the feeling like way too much caffeine - teeth grinding, excessive sweating body odor, jittery, a bit hyper, agitated/anxious, etc. Going to wait until I am back to baseline and then try even smaller doses. Quite surprising! (could be coincidence of course)

 

[erist]

Still wired 2 days later, did not expect such a huge effect. Seems to be getting slowly better though. Once back to baseline will try again to see if coincidence or repeatable...

 

[richvank]

Still wired 2 days later, did not expect such a huge effect. Seems to be getting slowly better though. Once back to baseline will try again to see if coincidence or repeatable...

Hi, erist.

I think that what happened is that your methionine synthase reaction speeded up, and that caused more of the homocysteine to be converted to methionine. That is desirable, because it is lifting the partial block in the methylation cycle. However, in the short term, it leaves less homocysteine to go toward supporting synthesis of glutathione, so glutathione drops further initially. That produces excitotoxicity in the brain when the protocol is started.

Coming up more slowly on the dosages would probably help. I favor use of hydroxo B12 rather than methyl B12, because that allows the cells to have more control over the rate of the methylation cycle, but if you lower the methyl B12 dosage, that should help.

I have also suggested adding L-cystine (not the same as L-cysteine) to counter the excitotoxicity, so long as there is not a high body burden of mercury, because L-cystine can move mercury into the brain. There are also other supplements that may help, including GABA, theanine, and others. Dr. Amy Yasko has presented lists of them.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[erist]

Well, I have klonopin, so that should help some with both nueroprotection and calming things down, even if I think it is a crappy drug (for lots of reasons) otherwise and I'll be delighted when I am off of it. AFAIK, GABA taken orally doesn't cross the BBB and I have also tried Picamilion (GABA combined with Niacin to transport it across) without much success for panic, neurological pain, crawling skin, hyperness, etc. (Also theanine). Will try Cystine. (Can't mb12 also move mercury into the brain by methylating it?) Like I said, could be coincidence, won't know until I repeat it 2 or 3 times.

Why not supplement NAC directly in the early days? (NAC has helped me in the past with OCD symptoms) I think Freddd talks about it being problematic, so I will search, but seems like it could be useful.

Also, more as speculation to myself, I wonder about taking daily DXM in the early days of the methylation cycle because it is an NMDA-antagonist (or low dose ketamine or memantine - though those are both scheduled, so harder to get) and should at least theoretically protect against excitotoxicity damage.

 

[erist]

(Note to self and others reading. Some speculate mb12 is not dangerous for mercury. See http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...er-with-detox-of-mercury-and-or-candida.9519/)

 

[richvank]

(Note to self and others reading. Some speculate mb12 is not dangerous for mercury. See http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...er-with-detox-of-mercury-and-or-candida.9519/)

Hi, erist.

Methyl B12 was found to move mercury into the brain in a guinea pig experiment. It isn't known whether it would happen in humans at the levels of mercury and methyl B12 that are physiologically possible.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Lotus97]

I just stopped taking all forms of B12 for a while. It made me so wired I couldn't sleep.

Niacin uses up methyl groups and helps me sleep. See: http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm

A possible reason not to take adenosylmethylcobalamin (adoMet):
One of the alternate reactions involving CBS is the condensation of cysteine with homocysteine to form cystathionine and hydrogen sulfide (H2S).[8] H2S in the brain is produced from L-cysteine by CBS. This alternative metabolic pathway is also dependent on adoMet.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cystathionine_beta_synthase

I've been having the wired feeling too so I'm also going to stop B12 for a bit and take extra Niacin. I'm going to take Niacin in the form of Niacinamide because that form is supposed to be best for anxiety also.

I'm not sure to what to think about methylcobalamin mobilizing mercury, but Adenosylcobalamin and Hydroxycobalamin can be converted into Methyl B12 so that's something to think about.

 

[dbkita]

I just stopped taking all forms of B12 for a while. It made me so wired I couldn't sleep.

Niacin uses up methyl groups and helps me sleep. See: http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm

A possible reason not to take adenosylmethylcobalamin (adoMet):
One of the alternate reactions involving CBS is the condensation of cysteine with homocysteine to form cystathionine and hydrogen sulfide (H2S).[8] H2S in the brain is produced from L-cysteine by CBS. This alternative metabolic pathway is also dependent on adoMet.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cystathionine_beta_synthase

Sorry but AdoMet is not adb12. AdoMet is SAMe the product of the methylation cycle and an almost universal methyl donor. On the other hand high levels of methylation can make too much SAMe which leads to feelings of overstimulation and being wired. It can also lead to excessive production of products on the trans-sulfuration path but at least that can in principle be assessed at least casually with urine sulfate strips.

 

[Phred]

I kinda have the opposite happening. I'm wired, for sure, but I stopped all b12 four days ago. I made the mistake of consuming far too much dairy over the holidays and made myself quite sick (inflamed gums, ataxia, headaches, and horrible digestive issues) so I decided to stop my supplements and give everything a rest. However, when I STOPPED my b12 (methyl and adenosyl) and methylfolate I became wired. I was sleeping ok until a few days ago when I stopped all supplements. I'm still having headaches, but my gut has mostly healed so I may start with the b12 and folate again today.

I've stopped all supplements two times before. Both times I became quite depressed (suicidal/hopeless). I was wondering if it was going to happen again. As I say it is day 4 and I'm just starting to feel that depression slide. I don't think I'll wait for it to get worse. I'll probably start my b12 again today. I can't handle how numb my hands are. I'm hoping it'll help with my sleep too.

 

[Lotus97]

One of the things that seems to mess me up a lot is active folate. This started 3 months ago when one of my amalgams cracked. I haven't taken methylfolate in months and I only took folinic acid for less than week, but I learned some things recently about naturally occuring folate in foods (not folic acid that has been added to foods) and also possible folate produced by probiotics. I don't know if these things are a significant factor or not, but I've read accounts of other people in these forums who were also sensitive to active folate so I hope it will be helpful to some.

Vegetables do contain folinic acid, as well as 5-methyl tetrahydrofolate. The latter is the main form of folate in the natural foods of the average diet, apart from the fortified foods.

I've heard from another person who had problems with anxiety and insomnia on this combination. In his case, we eventually realized that the probiotic bacteria were capable of synthesizing folate, and we came to suspect that this was effectively raising his dosage of chemically reduced folate, which is one of the key ingredients in the methylation treatment. This would have the effect of lifting the partial block in the methylation cycle more rapidly, which in turn would bring on the renewed function of the detox system more rapidly. Perhaps this would account for the more rapid mobilization of heavy metals that your physician found. I'm glad to hear that you have backed off on the treatments. It may take some time for the folate levels to drop, so that the detox will slow down. After that happens, you might consider doing the probiotic treatment separate from the methylation treatment. The combination may be too much for your body to tolerate.

 

[MishMash]

Hi arx,

while there definitely is the danger of becoming addicted to them, the benzodiazepines (Lexotanile and others) for me do indeed help big time against anxiety, agitation, irritablity, and insomnia (but I think you will need a prescription in most countries).

For myself, I have decided to prefer going through a benzo withdrawal phase after having improved from those excitatory symptoms and regained some more (mental and physical) strength rather than suffering all the time from those horrible symptoms (anxiety during the night while being sleepless being the worst of them all)...

BR,
awl29

Here's an example of me when I'm going through one of the phases you describe above. As you can see, I haven't slept in a few days.