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Help with methylation panel results?

richvank

Senior Member
Messages
2,732
Thanks, Rich!

My B-complex contains 25mg of vitamin B2 (as riboflavin, riboflavin 5' phosphate) and 40mg of vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine hydrochloride, pyridoxal, 5' phosphate, pyridoxine alpha-ketoglutarate hydrochloride). Do you think this would be sufficient?

Also, could the amino acids be high because of a high-protein diet?

Thanks again,
Karina

Hi, Karina.

Yes, I think those dosages are a good place to start.

A high-protein diet, with good gut function, will raise the amino acids levels, but yours are very high, suggesting that they are not being fed into the Krebs cycle at very high rates. Low P5P activity (due to low B6 or B2 or both) is the likely reason for that.

Best regards,

Rich
 
Messages
67
Location
NYC
Hi, Karina.

Yes, I think those dosages are a good place to start.

A high-protein diet, with good gut function, will raise the amino acids levels, but yours are very high, suggesting that they are not being fed into the Krebs cycle at very high rates. Low P5P activity (due to low B6 or B2 or both) is the likely reason for that.

Best regards,

Rich

Ah, ok. Thanks so much!!

Karina
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Ultimately, because it works!

Based on a very specific set of symptoms, I suspect I might be dealing with some kind of histamine overload. The higher levels of methylfolate are then necessary to support an increased need for S-Adenosyl methionine (SAM) as this is used by Histamine N-methyltransferase (HNMT) to convert histamine into N-methylhistamine. It probably doesn't hurt that methylfolate also increases production of tetrahydrobiopterin, resulting in higher neurotransmitters levels.

Ok, did you titrate up and found this to be the most effective dose?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Rich, I would like to know how you can see HPA function on a methylation panel? You mentioned in your first post that Karina had a problem there. Thanks.
 

nanonug

Senior Member
Messages
1,709
Location
Virginia, USA
Ok, did you titrate up and found this to be the most effective dose?

I did titrate up, but very quickly (life is short! :) )

The so-called "medical food" known as Deplin has a minimum starting dosage of 7.5mg/day. Given this, I will probably try higher dosages and see what happens. I am also taking a bunch of methylcobalamin. I am also going to do the Doctor's Data Methylation Profile soon to get an idea of what is happening.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
I did titrate up, but very quickly (life is short! :) )

The so-called "medical food" known as Deplin has a minimum starting dosage of 7.5mg/day. Given this, I will probably try higher dosages and see what happens. I am also taking a bunch of methylcobalamin in an attempt to recycle as much methylenetetrahydrofolate as possible. I am also going to do the Doctor's Data Methylation Profile soon to get an idea of what is happening.

Yes, I know deplin. What I don't know, is how they arrived at that dose.

How do you know that 800-1000mcg isn't just as effective?

Did you see this thread:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?p=245368
 

richvank

Senior Member
Messages
2,732
Rich, I would like to know how you can see HPA function on a methylation panel? You mentioned in your first post that Karina had a problem there. Thanks.

Hi, adreno.

That was based on other information that Karina had posted earlier, not on the methylation pathways panel. When I study a case, I try to use all the data I can find.

Best regards,

Rich
 

nanonug

Senior Member
Messages
1,709
Location
Virginia, USA
Yes, I know deplin. What I don't know, is how they arrived at that dose.

Here's my guess: "overdosing" on methylfolate will force the MTHFR enzyme to work in reverse, producing an overabundance of BH4. This will not only allow increased production of neurotransmitters but a more efficient working of the urea cycle. In this latter case, instead of superoxide and peroxynitrate (two nasty free radicals), nitric oxide will be produced instead.

How do you know that 800-1000mcg isn't just as effective?

Well, I started with just 800mcg/day but didn't feel much of an improvement.


No, I hadn't seen yet. It's a very interesting find and I suppose that for "normal" people that's probably what they need. In my case, however, and assuming that I am right in thinking that histamine overload is a problem, most of the S-adenosyl methionine ends up in the elimination of histamine instead of the more noble causes such as DNA methylation.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
Here's my guess: "overdosing" on methylfolate will force the MTHFR enzyme to work in reverse, producing an overabundance of BH4. This will not only allow increased production of neurotransmitters but a more efficient working of the urea cycle. In this latter case, instead of superoxide and peroxynitrate (two nasty free radicals), nitric oxide will be produced instead.



Well, I started with just 800mcg/day but didn't feel much of an improvement.



No, I hadn't seen yet. It's a very interesting find and I suppose that for "normal" people that's probably what they need. In my case, however, and assuming that I am right in thinking that histamine overload is a problem, most of the S-adenosyl methionine ends up in the elimination of histamine instead of the more noble causes of DNA synthesis or blood cell formation.

Those are interesting thoughts. I am in no position to judge whether your ideas are right or wrong, but I do personally find that high histamine levels is a problem.

Did you know histamine has been linked to POTS, although it seems that mast cell degranulation is at the heart of the problem:

Hyperadrenergic Postural Tachycardia Syndrome in Mast Cell Activation Disorders
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/45/3/385.full
 
Messages
67
Location
NYC
Given that, 1) you don't know whether you have MTHFR mutations, 2) more than half the population has at least one mutation and, 3) folic acid is "poison" for people with MTHFR mutations, I would definitely ditch your B-complex. Folinic acid also doesn't do you much good if you have any MTHFR mutations.

OK, maybe I'll get a chance to test for those mutations sometime soon. Which test would you recommend? As for the B-complex, I just ordered one from Douglas Laboratories - it has Metafolin instead of folic acid.

Absolutely! Methylfolate, together with high dosage methylcobalamin (15mg/day) and a good multivitamin (I take Thorne Basic Nutrinets III) and a few other assorted things that you may or may not need, allows me to function almost normally (at least at 90% of my "peak" capacity.)

Awesome- I'm glad you found something that works!
 

nanonug

Senior Member
Messages
1,709
Location
Virginia, USA
OK, maybe I'll get a chance to test for those mutations sometime soon. Which test would you recommend?

I think the best bang for the buck is 23andme. You not only get info about MTHFR but almost 1 million polymorphisms more. On top of that, there's a chance that on April 20th they will waive the 99 dollar fee for the kit. (April 20, 2012 is the National DNA Day.)

As for the B-complex, I just ordered one from Douglas Laboratories - it has Metafolin instead of folic acid.

Just looked at the label. I never used it but it appears to be a good one product.
 

nanonug

Senior Member
Messages
1,709
Location
Virginia, USA
Those are interesting thoughts. I am in no position to judge whether your ideas are right or wrong, but I do personally find that high histamine levels is a problem.

I don't know if I posted this before in this thread but here it goes anyway: Histamine and Histamine Intolerance.

As for the BH4/methylfolate thing, here is a cute little video: Mechanism of Action - L-Methylfolate.

Also, a nice reviews article: The methylation, neurotransmitter, and antioxidant connections between folate and depression.

Did you know histamine has been linked to POTS, although it seems that mast cell degranulation is at the heart of the problem: Hyperadrenergic Postural Tachycardia Syndrome in Mast Cell Activation Disorders http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/45/3/385.full

I was aware of the connection between POTS and histamine but hadn't seen that article before. Thanks for the link!
 
Messages
67
Location
NYC
Hi,

I just received results my Metametrix Organic Acids results. Rich (if you're reading this and have some time), I was hoping that you could take a look at them, there seem to be quite a few abnormalities..

The day of the test (and the day before) I was experiencing severe brain fog- felt drunk/drugged, had a bad headache, was dizzy, exhausted and really in an 'altered mental state'. I'm thinking that D-Lactate was at least partly responsible, as it was elevated on the test. The Metametrix GI Effects test that I did in January didn't show any overgrowth, though (I'll attach those results too).

I've been on a methylation protocol for almost 3 months now. Honestly, I have not experienced improvement yet- I still have periods of brain fog (and other typical CFS symptoms), alternating with periods of severe anxiety/adrenaline rushes, muscle twitching/cramps, dizziness, hyperexcitability etc.

These are the meds/supplements I've been taking for almost 3 months now (except for Plaquenil, which I only started a few weeks ago):

Doxycycline 200mg
Plaquenil 400mg
Florastor

Methylcobalamin injection 5mg every 3 days
Folinic acid 800mcg
B-complex (includes methylfolate 400mcg)
Phosphatidylserine

Rhodiola rosea 300mg
Adrenal Rebuilder
Magnesium oil

I also repeated the Methylation Pathways Panel- results should be ready in a few weeks.

Anyway, sorry for writing so much, I'm not thinking very clearly. I would just really appreciate some comments or advice. It looks like I have some gut issues to deal with, but otherwise, do I need to add any supplements or is my current protocol sufficient? And is it just a matter of time before my methylation problems get resolved?

Thanks so much,
Karina
 

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nanonug

Senior Member
Messages
1,709
Location
Virginia, USA
The day of the test (and the day before) I was experiencing severe brain fog- felt drunk/drugged, had a bad headache, was dizzy, exhausted and really in an 'altered mental state'. I'm thinking that D-Lactate was at least partly responsible, as it was elevated on the test. The Metametrix GI Effects test that I did in January didn't show any overgrowth, though (I'll attach those results too).

Yes, if at all, the GI Effects shows lowish lactobacilli. Have you been supplementing with probiotics?

I've been on a methylation protocol for almost 3 months now.

The Organix suggests you need adenosylcobalamin. You are just supplementing with methylcobalamin, no?

Doxycycline 200mg
Plaquenil 400mg
Florastor

Are you taking all these because of the Aeromonas overgrowth? 3 months on antibiotics is a long time!

Anyway, have a look at this, especially table 2, and see if it rings any bells:

LEAKY GUT SYNDROMES: BREAKING THE VICIOUS CYCLE

Good luck!
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
I still have periods of brain fog (and other typical CFS symptoms), alternating with periods of severe anxiety/adrenaline rushes, muscle twitching/cramps, dizziness, hyperexcitability etc.

These are the meds/supplements I've been taking for almost 3 months now (except for Plaquenil, which I only started a few weeks ago):

Adrenal Rebuilder

I would get off the Adrenal Rebuilder immediately. It gave me all the symptoms you are describing here.
 
Messages
67
Location
NYC
Yes, if at all, the GI Effects shows lowish lactobacilli. Have you been supplementing with probiotics?

Only on occasion, not any more than I was before the GI test :-/

The Organix suggests you need adenosylcobalamin. You are just supplementing with methylcobalamin, no?

Yeah, only methylcobalamin, as Rich recommended.

Are you taking all these because of the Aeromonas overgrowth? 3 months on antibiotics is a long time!

It sure is. My doctor initially suspected Lyme disease (I had some positive bands on the Western Blot) and then found that I have the FL1953 parasite (Fry Labs). So the Doxy and Plaquenil are meant to address the latter, although I'm skeptical about the whole thing (there's been no published research on that bug).

Anyway, have a look at this, especially table 2, and see if it rings any bells:

LEAKY GUT SYNDROMES: BREAKING THE VICIOUS CYCLE

Lol, that was written by my doctor! It's a good article! According to my doc I don't seem to have leaky gut syndrome, and he also told me not to take probiotics for now. Guess he might change his mind when he sees these results in a few weeks.

Good luck!

Thanks, nanonug. I will need it.
 
Messages
67
Location
NYC
I would get off the Adrenal Rebuilder immediately. It gave me all the symptoms you are describing here.

Oh man. The thing is, I had all those symptoms even before starting the Adrenal Rebuilder. So you felt better when you stopped taking it?