I have Thiamine Deficiency

[Vegas]

It looks like source naturals makes individual co-enzymated B vitamins. Would this be the ideal way to go? When you say take them separately do you mean at a different time of day, or just in a separate pill? Why would this matter?

I'm suggesting you purchase all the b vitamins individually, instead of in a complex, and experiment. Consider co-enzymated forms, but don't take the source naturals...because it is complexed. As for the question of taking them separately or combining them, there are some b vitamins that should be taken separately to avoid competitive inhibition of absorption. I am not totally sure about all the potential absorption issues or how significant the inhibition is, but here are some that I can recall:

B1 inhibits B3 absorption
Biotin inhibits B5 absorption

I think B1 can be taken with B2, and I certainly don't see any contraindication for taking B9 with B12.

I will let others chime in on this subject, but like others, I found that B2 has obvious absorption/competition issues when combined in a complex.

 

[Gavman]

Vegas you are a smart one. I very much like your post!

 

[Whit]

Interesting. Where are you getting this info from Vegas? Is it personal experience or research? It's frustrating how little research there is into basic nutrition We know so much about so many aspects of technology and medicine and yet put so little effort or research into basic nutrition. Seems like people are more interested in helping people once they are dying/ really unhealthy rather than keeping healthy people healthy.

Vegas, as I said, Source Naturals does make co-enzymated B vitamins that are NOT in a complex, but sold individually. Is this recommended? ie is co-enzymated preferred? I just bought co-enzymated B1 and coenzymated B2 to try until I start needling myself.

 

[Pea]

I'm suggesting you purchase all the b vitamins individually, instead of in a complex, and experiment. Consider co-enzymated forms, but don't take the source naturals...because it is complexed. As for the question of taking them separately or combining them, there are some b vitamins that should be taken separately to avoid competitive inhibition of absorption. I am not totally sure about all the potential absorption issues or how significant the inhibition is, but here are some that I can recall:

B1 inhibits B3 absorption
Biotin inhibits B5 absorption

Maybe this is why they have Biotin in a rather low dose in many supplements?

 

[Vegas]

Interesting. Where are you getting this info from Vegas? Is it personal experience or research? It's frustrating how little research there is into basic nutrition We know so much about so many aspects of technology and medicine and yet put so little effort or research into basic nutrition. Seems like people are more interested in helping people once they are dying/ really unhealthy rather than keeping healthy people healthy.

Vegas, as I said, Source Naturals does make co-enzymated B vitamins that are NOT in a complex, but sold individually. Is this recommended? ie is co-enzymated preferred? I just bought co-enzymated B1 and coenzymated B2 to try until I start needling myself.

A combination of personal experience and information gained along the journey from research and controlled experimentation with dozens of nutrients and other supplements involved in energy metabolism. My interpretation of the literature is certainly not up to par, but I'm pretty sure my reactions to different supplements are a pretty good guide to those with impaired mitochondrial function. There are some advantages to the co-enzymated forms of the b vitamins, given that certain co-factors necessary for conversion can be scarce, absorption in the gi tract can be compromised, etc. Again, I think this involves lots of trial and error. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do believe you should take small amounts of the co-enzymated vitamins at first, and also take them one at a time to see what reactions you experience. Any reaction to one of these substances, negative or positive, is a clue.

Trace minerals, zinc, selenium, molybdenum, and as some have reported on the B2 thread, manganese, seem to be a big part of the equation for many. It's a complicated subject because of the competition for absorption between certain nutrients, the strong and unpleasant reactions that can be precipitated by providing some of these nutrients and re-starting chemical processes, and of course most don't really know what nutrient deficits/imbalances they have or what genetic or acquired enzymatic inefficiencies exist. Sorry, I know this is vague.

 

[Whit]

I do appreciate the ideas and hearing about your experience. I'm a little hesitant about the weight that personal experiences are given on this forum though. There's a reason double blind studies are important for figuring this kind of thing out. It's really complicated.

Again, I do appreciate hearing from everyone's experience but we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. Still you could be right. My doctors don't seem willing to tell me anything.

 

[Whit]

I've tried taking Source Naturals coenzymated B2 twice now. Just taking 1/4 of a 25mg pill gives me a huge rush. I wouldn't exactly call it energy. I'd call it more like a rush of conciousness or awareness. There's a bit of anxiety with it too, but I'm not sure if that is directly related or because I've just been so shut down for so long that I don't know how to handle it. But it's certainly not calming. Jittery might be a good word. Though there's strong feeling of clarity and perspective which is really nice.

I'm not sure if I'll keep trying it or not. I wish my doctor had more time and info, I don't really feel comfortable experimenting on myself.

 

[Whit]

So for the past week I've been taking the following, spaced out as much as I can while still taking them all before 2pm

3/4 lozenge of Methyl B12- 1000mcg (been taking this for 3 weeks, slowly worked my way up to 3/4)
1 sublingual B1 25mg (maybe 4 days)
1/4 sublingual B2 25mg

And with breakfast:
1 pill Jarrow B Right
1/2 pill B1 100mg

I noticed an increase in mental energy and mental clarity at first. My leg pain also seems to have gotten a bit better. I can walk more before they start aching, and when it starts aching, I seem to be able to keep walking on them more before it gets worse. (though I've been careful not to push it, and I'm still using my wheelchair most of the time, just walking a little bit more) But for the past 3 nights I have had very restless sleep, waking up a lot through the night and not sleeping deeply. It seems like the same thing that happened when I first tried taking a whole Methyl B12 1000mcg lozenge. And the past 3 days I've felt worse and worse until today I feel really drained, spacey, just totally crashed mentally. I also feel kind of jittery or "wired" and am having a hard time trying to rest. I'm not sure whether it's the lack of sleep or something I'm taking, but if it was just lack of sleep, then one night of bad sleep and I would sleep like a baby the next night. I never have multiple sleepless nights in a row.

I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do. I took the same dose this morning, which means I probably won't sleep well again. Which I'm worried about. I guess I will try to back off all of the B vitamins, cut everything in half. And see how I do. It seems like I need them though. But I don't know if they are causing problems or if it's the sleep that is causing problems.

Any advice? If this is repetitive or obvious, I apologize. I can't spend too long reading/researching. Feel free to post a link. I tried to read Rich's protocol but it's not very clear to me.

Thanks

 

[heapsreal]

Anyone used sulbutiamine? its a form of vit b1 indicated for asthenia/chronic fatigue.
Sulbutiamine (brand name: Arcalion) is a synthetic derivative of thiamine (vitamin B1). As a dimer of two modified thiamine molecules, it is a lipophilic compound that crosses the blood-brain barrier more readily than thiamine and increases the levels of thiamine and thiamine phosphate esters in the brain.[1] Sulbutiamine was discovered in Japan in an effort to develop more useful thiamine derivatives since it was hoped that increasing the lipophilicity of thiamine would result in better pharmacokinetic properties.[2]

Asthenia
Sulbutiamine is indicated for the treatment of asthenia. Asthenia is a condition of chronic fatigue that is cerebral rather than neuromuscular in origin.[11] Several studies have shown that sulbutiamine is effective at relieving the symptoms of asthenia. In a study of 1772 patients with an infectious disease and asthenic symptoms, sulbutiamine was administered in addition to specific anti-infective treatment for 15 days.[12] The number of patients with complete resolution of all asthenic symptoms was 916. Another study showed that sulbutiamine is effective at relieving asthenia in patients after mild craniocerebral trauma.[13] Nevertheless, the clinical efficacy of sulbutiamine is uncertain. In a study of postinfectious chronic fatigue patients, sulbutiamine did not demonstrate sustained benefits over the placebo, which raises doubts about its clinical efficacy.[3] However, the authors of that study suggest that additional research is needed to evalulate the potential usefulness of sulbutiamine in the treatment of chronic fatigue.
[edit] Memory

Several studies have shown that sulbutiamine improves memory through the potentiation of cholinergic, dopaminergic, and glutamatergic transmission. When sulbutiamine is administered to mice, they perform better on operant conditioning tests[14] and object recognition tests.[15] Sulbutiamine also reduces the amnesiac effects of dizocilpine and improves memory in schizophrenics.[15] More recently, sulbutiamine has been shown to improve everyday activities in patients suffering from early-stage and moderate Alzheimer's disease when used in conjunction with an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor.[16] In a randomized double-blind study of Alzheimer's disease patients, the combination of sulbutiamine and donepezil improved episodic memory and daylife activities better than the combination of donepezil and a placebo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulbutiamine

 

[Freddd]

NO

It looks like source naturals makes individual co-enzymated B vitamins. Would this be the ideal way to go? When you say take them separately do you mean at a different time of day, or just in a separate pill? Why would this matter?

> Stick to the Jarrow or Enzymatic Therapy5 star methylb12. The Souce Naturals mb12 was ZERO stars and totally ineffective for 5 hyper-sensitives. The source Naturals Dibencozide however works fine. When you take separate pills you can titrate each separately to their most desirable levels.

 

[dannybex]

A complementary strategy is to reduce the raw material, methionine/cysteine, that comes from the diet because these amino acids (which are of course found in high quantities in many proteins) can be metabolized to form more sulfite.

Hi Vegas,

I was wondering where you found this info that suggests that methionine/cysteine 'can be metabolized to form more sulfite'?

Thanks in advance,

Dan

 

[dannybex]

p.s. Christine (the infamous Dog Person who was telling everyone last year to take b2/manganese) called me out of the blue about 2-3 weeks ago, and said that she was wrong about manganese. She still insists that b2 plays a big role.

 

[Whit]

I injected myself every day for a month (not fun) with Thiamine and noticed nothing significant. Maybe a subtle shift in the way my muscles fatigued, but not something I'd call an improvement. :-/ Yet another hope for a discovery that failed.

 

[Whit]

Id like to look into a possible condition where i cant absorb Thiamine. Ive read about rare genetic conditions like this. And maybe thiamine injections wouldnt address that. I should have been retested for the active form of thiamine while i was doing injections but i was overwhelmed and kind of discouraged.

Ive asked doctors about looking into this but they all give me the classic "oh thats rare and very unlikely" Which is of course what the people who have the condition are told as well. Grrr

 

[triffid113]

"What would they do? I don't know much science anymore, sorry... Can you elaborate a little more?"

...
Good luck.

I can't sort al this out myself, but I wanted to say that if you want to TEST your sulfate or sulfite levels www.heartfixer.com sells test strips. I like objective measures of what's wrong because I believe "you can't control what you can't measure." (Especially in case you have many things wrong, like me, it can be difficult to disentangle one from the other, so objective measures help).

 

[triffid113]

I have had these symptoms too (well the ataxia, which I had for maybe 5 years) and thought them to be due to thiamine deficiency. Other things besides tea, but also blueberries can destroy thiamine. Thiamine does not stay in your blood 24 hours, which is one of the reasons for taking your B complex 2x/day. (Those who have done so says taking that second B complex really raised their energy levels). I tried benfotiamine, which fyi, also protects your kidneys from glycation. I was not motivated to continue. My ataxia is gone. In retrospect I think it was from insufficient dopamine (also causes spastic movement) and my doctor put me on 1g tyrosine/day. I actually take 1-3g/day depending on how much protein I eat that day. I also take Thorne Basic B, often 2x/day, but I am no saint and that 2nd dose does not always happen. tyrosine is required to make dopamine, thyroxine, and one of the adrenal hormones.

 

[xjhuez]

Other things besides tea, but also blueberries can destroy thiamine.

Because of the tannins? Damn, I consume both of those daily, along with coffee and occasional red wine.

 

[Whit]

I do too. Not sure I eat enough to cause a deficiency though, if it was that big a deal it would be more widely known. Lots of people eat blueberries every day. Maybe contributing though. I also eat a lot of brussel sprouts which supposedly do the same.

 

[jeffrez]

You should try benfotiamine. It's a fat-soluble form of B1 that's more bioavailable than water soluble thiamines. Loading doses might be a good idea if deficient, and then taper to a lower dose when the levels come up.

 

[xjhuez]

Benfotiamine over allithiamine?