Some inforamtion on titrated mb12-Metafolin-potassium ratios and startup

[L'engle]

Hi L'engle,
And how much Metafolin?

Hi Freddd,

I haven't figured out the metafolin yet. On a normal day lately, just 800mcg. I have gone up to 12800mcg in the past though. I got some neurologocial indications that this did something but I don't know what. It was impossible to sustain at that level for more than a day, due to the additives in the metafolin being tough on the stomach at that level. I'm kind of frustrated that I never managed to figure out if folate is a big issue for me. I had one flukey good day when I went 2 whole days without food folate (no vegetables etc) but was not able to duplicate that, even with a schedule of 16 metafolin tabs one day and no food folate the next. If there was a benefit, it only seemed to occur after two full days without food folate, and I have no viable way of doing that.

 

[alwayshopeful]

Hixxy,
Where do you get your transdermal magnesium?

 

[IntuneJune]

I was reading another thread and wrote the post below....when I went to post, I was not allowed stating I was not signed in (anymore). Captured it with "Control C" and then spent time trying to find the thread and could not!!!! Frustrated, I am posting it here as it also included mB12 info as well as the tapering of Klonopin.


FREDD, that you for the time you spend here.

Years ago I was on Klonopin, I brought the recommendation to my PCP printed from Dr. Cheney's writings; and was on it for years. Fortunately I did not increase the dose when I felt I was not getting the advantages initially. And I started a slow taper off of it only knowing one was not supposed to go off of it quickly. Now it has been, ummm, eight years maybe since I have taken it. I am thinking..I missed the bullet.

In the past, the rheumatologist tried different drugs to help with the FMS pain, one she increased the dose three times because after the initial help I received, the pain came back. So when the pain came back after the third increase, I said to her, "there is no need for me to be in the same amount of pain AND be taking this pill that my liver and other organs must process.... so I stopped.....That was tough, I was in more pain initially....then the level died down to my baseline.

FREDDI have a hard time getting my mind wrapped around the mB12 methylation program. I am so confused. Did I understand it is possible to start with only mB12 or B12. I suffer from allergies and inflammation, (CRP and sed rate elevated) and remember that being mentioned?

June

 

[Freddd]

1,000mcg mb12 made me grumpy and worsened my sleep issues, so I've switched back to 2,000mcg of hb12.

I need 1800mg of potassium to avoid muscle cramping - I check my levels with a potassium meter. This amount probably brings me up to the RDA; I don't get much in my food.

The only folate I take is the 400mcg of metafolin in one B-Complex. I have no way of gauging how much I need. There's no feedback loop.

I am slowly gaining back ground I lost last year, in overall energy. The biggest obvious change has been gut transit time. I used to have to take 800-1200 mg of magnesium daily to keep things moving. I don't use magnesium any more.

My potassium meter: http://www.amazon.com/Horiba-Cardy-...2HS2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335787003&sr=8-1

Freddd, I will try these suggestions. I've resurrected my methylation thread (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?15865-Folate-Issues-amp-Methylation) so I won't tie this one up with my experiments (aka thrashing about). When I get useful results, I'll bring them over here.

\
Hi Madie,


The only folate I take is the 400mcg of metafolin in one B-Complex. I have no way of gauging how much I need. There's no feedback loop. (oh really, see next line)
1,000mcg mb12 made me grumpy and worsened my sleep issues,

You may need a great deal more Metafolin. Typically somebody who succeeds in starting healing needs 2400-4000mcg or so of Metafolin and as high as 30,000mcg depending upon how severe one's paradoxical folate deficiency is.

 

[Freddd]

I was reading another thread and wrote the post below....when I went to post, I was not allowed stating I was not signed in (anymore). Captured it with "Control C" and then spent time trying to find the thread and could not!!!! Frustrated, I am posting it here as it also included mB12 info as well as the tapering of Klonopin.


FREDD, that you for the time you spend here.

Years ago I was on Klonopin, I brought the recommendation to my PCP printed from Dr. Cheney's writings; and was on it for years. Fortunately I did not increase the dose when I felt I was not getting the advantages initially. And I started a slow taper off of it only knowing one was not supposed to go off of it quickly. Now it has been, ummm, eight years maybe since I have taken it. I am thinking..I missed the bullet.

In the past, the rheumatologist tried different drugs to help with the FMS pain, one she increased the dose three times because after the initial help I received, the pain came back. So when the pain came back after the third increase, I said to her, "there is no need for me to be in the same amount of pain AND be taking this pill that my liver and other organs must process.... so I stopped.....That was tough, I was in more pain initially....then the level died down to my baseline.

FREDDI have a hard time getting my mind wrapped around the mB12 methylation program. I am so confused. Did I understand it is possible to start with only mB12 or B12. I suffer from allergies and inflammation, (CRP and sed rate elevated) and remember that being mentioned?

June

Hi June,

Methylation is 1/6 or so of the whole b12 issue. Why not go for the whole thing instead of only an inadequate piece? Read up on the Active b12 protocol BASICS and let's talk about it. If you are like me you can be 75% healed in a year and rehabbing.

 

[maddietod]

\
Hi Madie,


The only folate I take is the 400mcg of metafolin in one B-Complex. I have no way of gauging how much I need. There's no feedback loop. (oh really, see next line)
1,000mcg mb12 made me grumpy and worsened my sleep issues,

You may need a great deal more Metafolin. Typically somebody who succeeds in starting healing needs 2400-4000mcg or so of Metafolin and as high as 30,000mcg depending upon how severe one's paradoxical folate deficiency is.

OK, and I laughed. But this isn't like potassium, where I get a certain cramp in my neck and reach for the bottle. I haven't found any indicator that always and only means take more Solgar.

I looked over my notes, and where I wrote "Jarrow = irritable hater" I was taking 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/8 of a pill (testing dosage), and 2 B-Complex (800mcg metafolin). So yeah, not enough.

And I gave up trying to figure out paradoxical folate deficiency. I feel fabulous eating only protein, but that could be for lots of reasons, eg inability to process carbs. But when eating vegetable meals, I never had problems or benefits, no matter how much or how little Solgar I took right before eating. Again, no feedback loop.

 

[Freddd]

OK, and I laughed. But this isn't like potassium, where I get a certain cramp in my neck and reach for the bottle. I haven't found any indicator that always and only means take more Solgar.

I looked over my notes, and where I wrote "Jarrow = irritable hater" I was taking 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/8 of a pill (testing dosage), and 2 B-Complex (800mcg metafolin). So yeah, not enough.

And I gave up trying to figure out paradoxical folate deficiency. I feel fabulous eating only protein, but that could be for lots of reasons, eg inability to process carbs. But when eating vegetable meals, I never had problems or benefits, no matter how much or how little Solgar I took right before eating. Again, no feedback loop.

Hi Madietodd,

Take a look at the list of specifically metafolin deficiency symptoms. If you recognize any coming or going which can include mood, nerve changes, skin changes, IBS, etc. Sometimes it takes a bunch of cycles to recognize the efrects. Try titrating to 3200mcg by adding 800mcg a day and see if you have improvement, leaving it there for a couple of weeks. That is right in the sweet spot for those without paradoxical folate deficiency.

 

[maddietod]

I'm back up to 3200mcg metafolin; I don't know how old that quote from me is.

I haven't been able to find a list of metafolin-specific deficiency symptoms. I would love to have a link to that.

Madle

 

[Freddd]

I'm back up to 3200mcg metafolin; I don't know how old that quote from me is.

I haven't been able to find a list of metafolin-specific deficiency symptoms. I would love to have a link to that.

Madle

Hi Madie,

I couldn't find the post I wanted to link to so I copied from elsewhere. Here are the potassium and folate symptoms group with the overlaps detailed. Some of the symptoms are long term and some appear starting in hours.


Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with cyanocobalamin it is very common with methylb12 and adensosylb12 and less so with hydroxycobalamin..
IBS – Steady constipation , Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum, Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, neck muscles, Muscle weakness, Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), Increased pulse rate, Increased blood pressure, Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

Group 2a - Both
IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

Group 2b – Either or both
Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency
IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract, increased hypersensitive responses , Skin rashes, Increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores, Coated tongue, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, Increase irritability, Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Old symptoms returning, Heart palpitations, Bleeding easily.

 

[maddietod]

Hi, Freddd,

This is useful. I remember seeing it and being too brain dead to figure out how to use it. Thanks for finding it again.

So now I throw in the L-Carnitine Fumarate - do I remember you saying it can also cause these gut symptoms, all on its own? I'm just trying to keep track of what to watch out for and from where.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Madie,

The carnitine can cause all sorts of gut symptoms, as far as I can tell, because of increased activity. There is a point where it is just enough but not too much. If that is low, the body adapts to it every day or so and it becomes a moving target. If a person has an adb12 deficiency accompanied by ab LCF deficiency, the first one in has no response and the second one in has huge response. That can be accompanied by anxiety and/or diarrhea (independent of each other).