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Any Dr Cheney patients? Does he still stand by Clonazepam (low dose) for excitotxicty

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Do those of you with excitotoxin problems get mentally tired easily when not on these toxins ?

I know I'm more alert and respond quicker while on these but at the same time, I'm
not thinking things through when I'm like this. I can't really comprehend what the other person
is saying.

I'm sure i came accross as self centered and obnoxious when I was eating gluten, sugar and caffeine. And maybe a little scarey .. Lol
I see this behavoir in myself when on other excitotoxins too tho.
I was on B6 yesterday. (imagine embarrassed / apologetic face here)

Without these toxins, I feel more fatigued tho. Weird ..

It's the push crash cycle but in my head .. Tc .. X

Im a bit different to that when I have excitotoxin problems. Its like Im trying to think fast/hyper but not that either..its hard to explain.. its very ungrounding).... but can be very scattered in my thoughts due to it.

I actualy think that state in the past ended up up making me at times feel more tired, as the bursts of whatever im doing mentally are more intense so draining
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Any more of Cheney's patients out there to respond? cause I'd heard in the past that they werent allowed to share his treatment protocols, so I'd love to hear more from you guys about this.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
I am sorry that I disturbed the community spirit. I will try never to do that again.

Nielk

Nielk .. you havent disturbed community spirit. I think it is great everyone is hearing both sides of the fence. It allows more informed choices. I think that is what the big issue is.. people not being informed enough by their doctors so they dont get to make a proper decision of things.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Although starting slow on benzos, I, eventually was at 8 mg Xanax during the day for stress and the following combo for insomnia:
1) 4 mg Xanax
2) 4 mg Klonopin
3) 30 mg Temazepam

Its sad to hear that some doctors are prescribing so much. My own CFS specialist has set the maximum dose of Temazepam (no matter how bad my sleep issues are) at 15mg and he's only really okay with me taking twice a week.

Its terrible hearing your doctor left you that way. Im glad to hear you have a doctor now, really trying to help your sleep issues (what is now being suggested to you is all the stuff doctor worked with me with..before even drugs were considered.

Its madness doctors are prescribing drugs before everything else has been tried. Even psychotherapy was tried in my case (my psychotherapist thou suggested sending me to a sleep clinic for help as she was unable to help me in this area).

I am working with a Dr who together we came up with the following protocol for the insomnia:

1) Sleep Hygiene - Dark room, no TV, Dark curtains on the windows, etc.
2) Do something non-stressfull before bed. I read something.
3) Meditation - I'm starting slow as my mind races. I found several books for novices. I don't get mad if I don't "do it" correctly. I'm trying and that's what counts. I do at least 5 mins every morning and 5 - 10 mins every night. This seems to be helping the most..

Best luck with successfully getting off of the drugs
 

August59

Daughters High School Graduation
Messages
1,617
Location
Upstate SC, USA
I don't know but I tolerate the 0.5 mg well when I take it. I take it occasionally and wish it didn't cause dependency as it does bring some relief, though it does nothing to help the fatigue for me.

You could try 0.5mg instead, 1 mg is a lot for me, never needed that much.

The .5mg dose is extremely small, especially if taken no more then 3 to 4 times per week. But to be safe, find a pill spliter and use .25 mg for a couple of weeks. You could even add some L-theanine that last week. I'll be willing to bet that you will not have any problems at all. If sleeping is an issue the first few nights after stopping buy you show diphenhydramine (Benadryl) and start 25mg, but you can go to 50 mg total.
 

hixxy

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
Location
Australia
The .5mg dose is extremely small, especially if taken no more then 3 to 4 times per week. But to be safe, find a pill spliter and use .25 mg for a couple of weeks. You could even add some L-theanine that last week. I'll be willing to bet that you will not have any problems at all. If sleeping is an issue the first few nights after stopping buy you show diphenhydramine (Benadryl) and start 25mg, but you can go to 50 mg total.


I find the klonopin eases my overstimulation, increases energy and elevates my mood at 1mg. I only user it intermittently tho.

hixxy
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
What were your symptoms of b6 intolerance dannybex?

Mainly 'sudden' (within an hour or two) tingling and numbness in my feet and toes -- like I'm wearing individual socks on each toe -- and sometimes in my hands, but also increased anxiety and overstimulation. And that was with just small amounts of b6 -- 10 milligrams or so. The riboflavin definitely helped with these symptoms, especially the tingling and numbness.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Thanks for the link Danny. I only looked through it quickly but for now it looks like it pulls together what I've been noticing. I'm taking antibiotics for a UTI, so I'm not sure when I'll have the brain power to think this through .. tc ... x
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
I can't tolerate b6 at all without sufficient b2 -- riboflavin. That's why I'm interested in Christine Huebner's hypothesis as stated in the Hair Mineral Analysis thread. I don't know if b6 depletes b2, or if it's just that perhaps an overall b2 deficiency may exist in the patient population because it's needed in so many other enzymatic conversions/reactions, but again, I could not tolerate b6 for the last 6-7 years, but read elsewhere that b2 helped, and started it about four months ago, and sure enough, I could finally tolerate small amounts of b6.

Thanks. I haven't been able to tolerate b2 due to extreme bladder pain but I'll keep this in mind. Maybe there's a way to get it via the skin.

Fwiw, is it possible that we simply can't tolerate most supplements ? I've read that they can contain
toxins. Esp since no one is monitoring these. If the amount of gluten in those gf foods is any indication
of how trustworthy corporations are, we're screwed.

Speaking of this, I had to return many bottles of supplements because they were cross contaminated with gluten or soy. And they said gf or soy free on the label. This is the upside of knowing our food reactions.

I didn't get a toxic reaction from the 5 - 6 Meyers cocktails I got last year.
I didn't notice any improvement either tho. So either these chemicals are less toxic in iv form or getting these nutrients intravenously avoids the toxic response in my digestive tract.

Has anyone else here tried ivs or injections containing the same nutrients we react to in supplement form ?
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Im a bit different to that when I have excitotoxin problems. Its like Im trying to think fast/hyper but not that either..its hard to explain.. its very ungrounding).... but can be very scattered in my thoughts due to it.

I actualy think that state in the past ended up up making me at times feel more tired, as the bursts of whatever im doing mentally are more intense so draining

I get this too sometimes esp if I've been overdoing it. But if I'm rested meaning I don't have pem, I
turn into Chatty Cathy on neurotoxins. I just remembered provigil did this to me too.

Tc .. X
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Hi again,

If I haven't already, I just wanted to mention an article I read on prohealth about cytokines in cfs.
If you google prohealth cytokines it's the first article.

He explains how reducing these can help. In my case, diet was the biggest source of these.
The paleo diet eliminates most of these but the wahls diet provides the most nutrients.

Tc .. X
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
Someone on this thread was earlier asking about how Cheney believed the benzos protected our brain. Anyway.. the answer to that, I just found on another Benzo thread so thought I'd put it here.

In CFIDS, NMDA is more activated than GABA, lowering the threshold potential. This causes neurons to fire with very little stimulation, resulting in sensory overload. This condition of excitatory neurotoxicity is dangerous. Dr. Cheney emphasizes that in an attempt to protect itself, the body will eventually kill neurons that fire excessively. He states that brain cell loss can result if this condition isnt addressed.

Dr. Cheney emphasized that Klonopin, Doxepin, and magnesium are very, very good at protecting the brain from cell death due to excess firing. However, they cant stop the underlying mechanisms of CFIDS that are injuring the brain in the first place.

Though it cant stop the underlying mechanisms causing the injury, Klonopin can protect your brain and keep your neurons from being destroyed. Then, as Cheney put it, "When you come out on the other side of this, youll have more of your brain left."

So maybe I have Klonopin to actually thank for my brain coming out of my past severe brain state of where my brain was so bad I had memory issues of even my own family members and what they looked like.. and of simple every day objects.. eg what a toaster was, what a door was and what it was used for? etc . (B12 fixed my memory issues greatly)

Could I ended up like brain damage if I hadnt started taking Klonopin? I guess we really dont know... my brain was acting very damaged. Has Cheney got patients who improved a lot but were left like actual brain damaged??? I guess he has some reason for making the statements he did.

The above two cheney quotes I posted before.. got taken from a larger text below.

http://www.prohealth.com/library/sho...154&t=CFIDS_FM

Editors Note: The following is based on a recent interview conducted by Carol Sieverling with Dr. Paul R. Cheney, M.D., Ph.D., and the article "CFIDS Treatment: The Cheney Clinics Strategic Approach" (CFIDS Chronicle, Spring 1995). Dr. Cheney gave permission to share this information, but has not reviewed or edited it.

Many CFIDS specialists prescribe the drug Klonopin. In the October 1999 issue of The Fibromyalgia Network, nine CFS/FM specialists summarized their most effective treatments, and six included Klonopin. Interestingly, the three who did not are primarily FM specialists.

Dr. Cheney prescribes Klonopin to address a condition associated with CFIDS called "excitatory neurotoxicity." To explain this condition to patients, he draws a line with "seizure" on the far left and "coma" on the far right. A big dot in the middle represents where healthy people are when awake. A dot somewhat to the right of the middle indicates where healthy people are when asleep slightly shifted toward coma. He highlights in red the left portion of the line, from seizure to the middle, and labels it "Neurotoxic State" (damaging to the brain). He highlights in blue the right portion of the line, from coma to the middle, and labels it "Healing State."

In CFIDS, an ongoing injury to the brain shifts patients toward seizure. A dot to the left of the middle, marked "injury," represents the position of CFIDS patients. This puts us in the red "Neurotoxic" zone. When we shift toward seizure, we often experience "sensory overload." Its as if our brains "radar" is too sensitive. Our neurons (nerve cells) are sensing stimuli and firing when they should not. This causes amplification of sensory input. Light, noise, motion and pain are all magnified. At the beginning of their illness, many patients report feeling exhausted, yet also strangely "wired." The "wired" feeling is the slight shift towards seizure that occurs as a result of the excitatory neurotoxicity.

Cheney frequently uses the term "threshold potential" when discussing excitatory neurotoxicity. (Think of the threshold - bottom - of a doorway. The lower it is, the more accessible it is. When it is at floor level, everything can enter. When it is raised, access is restricted to taller people. If it is too high, no one can enter.) Threshold potential refers to how much stimulus it takes to make neurons fire. If the threshold potential is too low, even slight stimulation is "allowed to enter" and is detected by the neurons. This causes the neurons to fire, resulting in sensory overload. If the threshold is dropped to nothing, all stimuli get through and the neurons fire continuously, resulting in a seizure. If the threshold is raised, only stronger stimuli can make neurons fire. A healthy persons threshold potential naturally rises at bedtime, promoting sleep. If the threshold potential is too high, you feel drugged or drowsy. If the threshold potential is raised extremely high, coma results.

Two receptors in the brain, NMDA and GABA, determine the threshold potential. During the waking hours of a healthy person, NMDA and GABA should be equally active. This balances the person in the middle of the seizure/coma continuum. NMDA stimulates, and GABA inhibits. If NMDA increases, one moves toward seizure. If GABA increases, one moves toward coma.

In CFIDS, NMDA is more activated than GABA, lowering the threshold potential. This causes neurons to fire with very little stimulation, resulting in sensory overload. This condition of excitatory neurotoxicity is dangerous. Dr. Cheney emphasizes that in an attempt to protect itself, the body will eventually kill neurons that fire excessively. He states that brain cell loss can result if this condition isnt addressed.

How can the brain be protected against excitatory neurotoxicity? Klonopin. This long acting benzodiazepine has been Dr. Cheneys most effective drug for CFIDS over the years. He believes that Klonopin and the supplement magnesium may be two of the most important treatments for CFIDS patients because of their neuroprotective qualities. He recommends two or more 0.5 mg tablets of Klonopin at night. Paradoxically, very small doses (usually a quarter to a half a tablet) in the morning and mid-afternoon improve cognitive function and energy. If the daytime dose is low enough, youll experience greater clarity and think better. If the daytime dose is too high, youll become drowsy. Adjust your dose for maximum benefit, taking as much as possible without drowsiness. Adjust the morning dose first, then take the same amount mid-afternoon if needed, then take three to four times the morning dose at bedtime. Dr. Cheney recommends doubling the dose during severe relapses.

Dr. Cheney most frequently prescribes the combination of Klonopin and Doxepin, along with the supplement "Magnesium Glycinate Forte." Magnesium Glycinate alone is a good choice for the more budget minded(www.ImmuneSupport.com sells it as "Magnesium Plus".) A common dosage of magnesium is 200 mgs at bedtime. Too much magnesium can cause diarrhea, though glycinate is usually the best tolerated form.

Cheney prescribes Doxepin in the form of a commercial elixir (10mg/ml). At low doses, this tricyclic antidepressant acts as a very potent antihistamine and immune modulator. Doxepin acts synergistically with Klonopin to assist sleep, and may improve pain. Patients tend to be very sensitive to Doxepin, which can cause morning fog and fatigue if the dose is too high (5 to 10 mg or higher). He recommends starting at two drops a night and gradually increasing the dose until "morning fog" becomes a problem. Most patients cant tolerate more than half a cc.

On a handout entitled "Neuroprotection via Threshold Potentials," Cheney lists six substances that can protect the brain. Under the category "NMDA Blockers" Cheney lists:

1. Parenteral magnesium and taurine (intramuscular injections of magnesium and taurine, usually given with procaine)
2. Histamine blockers (Doxepin Elixir)
Under the category "GABA Agonists" (increases GABA) Cheney lists:
3. Klonopin
4. Neurontin
5. Kava Kava
6. Valerian Root

Klonopin is taken "day and night"; Neurontin "night, or day and night"; kava kava daytime only; and valerian nighttime only. The first four are by prescription, the last two are herbs. In my limited experience, only certain patients are put on magnesium/taurine injections, and then only for a limited period before switching to oral supplements.

Many myths abound concerning Klonopin. When asked about these myths, Dr. Cheney shared the following information.

MYTH NUMBER ONE: THE GENERIC IS JUST AS GOOD.

When the generic Clonazepam came on the market, many patients switched to it because it was less expensive than Klonopin. Cheney then began hearing that most patients had to take more Clonazepam to get the same effect. Generics arent exactly identical to the original products, and with most drugs the slight variations dont matter. However, most CFIDS patients can tell the difference between Klonopin and its generic form, Clonazepam. Most find Klonopin to be more effective.

MYTH NUMBER TWO: KLONOPIN IS ADDICTIVE.

Dr. Cheney was adamant that Klonopin is not addictive. In treating thousands of patients, he has never seen a patient become addicted to Klonopin. He reviewed the definition of addiction, stating that it involves:
(1) psychosocial disruption, (2) accelerated use, (3) inappropriate use, and (4) drug seeking behavior.

Dr. Cheney said a case might be made that Klonopin is habituating. Its true that it cant be stopped suddenly. You must taper off of it gradually. However, he was cautious about even calling it habituating. The process of tapering off a drug is not the same thing as withdrawal, a term that implies addiction.

Dr. Cheney said to keep in mind that Klonopin is given for a physiological problem excitatory neurotoxicity. Its prescribed to adjust the threshold potential: to keep neurons from firing inappropriately and being destroyed. He stressed that Klonopin should never be given unless you intend to raise the threshold potential. He stated, "Problems arise when you begin to use benzodiazapines for reasons other than threshold manipulation." However, CFIDS patients have a "threshold potential aberration" and need Klonopin (or something similar) to avoid brain injury. Dr. Cheney has never seen a recovered patient have difficulty coming off Klonopin. He stated, "When you no longer need the drug, coming off it is very easy."

On the other hand, trouble arises when someone who still has an injured brain tries to come off Klonopin. Its like a thyroid patient stopping their thyroid medication. Dr. Cheney warned, "All hell breaks loose". However, its not because the drug is addicting, and its not withdrawal. The condition still exists, and the body lets you know it has a legitimate physical need for the drug. Cheney stated, "When a CFIDS patient who is still experiencing the underlying mechanisms of brain injury goes off Klonopin, there is a burst of excess neural firing and cell death. Thats the havoc we hear about that is mistakenly called withdrawal."

MYTH NUMBER THREE: KLONOPIN DISRUPTS STAGE 4 SLEEP.

Dr. Cheney said that he honestly doesnt understand this concern. He believes Klonopin might disrupt the sleep of people who take it for conditions other than the threshold potential aberration found in CFIDS. He also acknowledged that if you are looking just for drugs to facilitate sleep, Klonopin is certainly not the first one to come to mind, nor should it be used to induce sleep in "ordinary" patients. Its not a sleep drug per se. However, a large part of the sleep disorder of CFIDS is excitatory neurotoxicity and the resulting shift toward seizure. If you treat this condition with Klonopin, then you have treated a large part of the sleep disorder in CFIDS. Most importantly, he said he simply does not see stage 4 sleep disruption in his patients on Klonopin.

Towards the end of this discussion on Klonopin, Cheney smiled, and remarked, "But suppose Im wrong about the brain injury and the threshold potential aberration and the shift toward seizure? What if Im wrong about your need for Klonopin? Im absolutely sure Im right, but whats the worst case scenario? Do you know what long-term studies on Klonopin have shown? Reduced incidence of Alzheimers Disease. Alzheimers Disease is a complicated and convoluted way of knocking out your neurons, and Klonopin protects your neurons. Now its believed that Klonopin didnt actually stop Alzheimers. It just delayed its onset so long that everyone died of something else before they ever got it - which is to say you wont get Alzheimers. Youll die of something else first."

The last question Cheney addressed concerned the dose: what happens if the dose is too high? He said the only down side was that if you took a little too much (we are not talking overdose here) it would shift you toward coma on the continuum. It would shut your brain down to some degree, and thus impact your ability to function. This is inconvenient, but its not harmful. In fact, it shifts you into the "healing state" on the continuum. You may feel like a zombie, but your brain is protected and your neurons are not getting fried. However, not being able to function isnt an option for most of us, so we need to find the maximum dose that doesnt make us drowsy.

Dr. Cheney emphasized that Klonopin, Doxepin, and magnesium are very, very good at protecting the brain from cell death due to excess firing. However, they cant stop the underlying mechanisms of CFIDS that are injuring the brain in the first place.

Though it cant stop the underlying mechanisms causing the injury, Klonopin can protect your brain and keep your neurons from being destroyed. Then, as Cheney put it, "When you come out on the other side of this, youll have more of your brain left."
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
I'm not aware of cheney or our other traditionally trained cfs specialists, looking for root
causes in their patients. Does he order stool testing to look for food antibodies, candida,
bad bacteria, good bacteria, parasites, etc ? Does he do a complete nutritional panel
on his patients ? Does he use traditional or non traditional tests for Lyme and possible co-factors ?
Does he test for heavy metals ? Etc etc ..

If not, then as a totally disabled pwc who's gone through this testing and treatment and had
positive test results and treatments, I can't understand why I should listen to him .. And yet, I still try to make sense of his logic.

It seems to me that he's looking at the end product of the root causes and throwing drugs at it. This is how traditional doctors think.

Why not take the canary out of the coalmine and let it get some fresh air instead of simply trying to revive it in the coalmine ? What would you, Joe patient, do ? Where's the common sense ?

I was shocked when I learned this. I've only been researching health for 7 years but I find it imposssible to ignore root causes of symptoms.

Tc .. X
 

hixxy

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
Location
Australia
I'm not aware of cheney or our other traditionally trained cfs specialists, looking for root
causes in their patients. Does he order stool testing to look for food antibodies, candida,
bad bacteria, good bacteria, parasites, etc ? Does he do a complete nutritional panel
on his patients ? Does he use traditional or non traditional tests for Lyme and possible co-factors ?
Does he test for heavy metals ? Etc etc ..

If not, then as a totally disabled pwc who's gone through this testing and treatment and had
positive test results and treatments, I can't understand why I should listen to him .. And yet, I still try to make sense of his logic.

It seems to me that he's looking at the end product of the root causes and throwing drugs at it. This is how traditional doctors think.

Why not take the canary out of the coalmine and let it get some fresh air instead of simply trying to revive it in the coalmine ? What would you do ? Where's the common sense ?

I was shocked when I learned this. I've only been researching health for 7 years but I find it imposssible to ignore root causes of symptoms.

Tc .. X

I think the problem with this method isn't that there is a problem with it, but that the pathology is unreliable! We truely don't know what is going on in the gut (and the rest of the body for that matter), regardless of how many poo samples we send in.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
I have to trust the integrative or functional doctors who say we can trust these tests. So far,
Metametrix has picked up my h pylori and parasites. I treated these and retested and now I only have
one more type of parasites to treat for. I saw what came out of me while treating so I didn't doubt
something had died. Lol .. I no longer have my undeniable h pylori symptoms either.

imho, I find it easy to trust a highly trained doctor who's actually trying to correct the root cause of my me/cfs.
Afterall, they have the same training as an md + holistic training. And they actually have patients who get
well. I'm still working on healing but quite frankly, I was a mess. I stayed in the coalmine for
15 1/2 years after I stopped breathing .. Lol ..

So why aren't we hearing about these patients ? Why didn't my doctors make a big deal out of me
walking after 16 1/2 years ? Seriously ? I actually got some rude comments from my mds when I told them how much better I was feeling. Passing the rhomberg after 16 years of failing it, can't be overlooked. Or can it ?

Could it be that there's too much money in keeping us sick ?

Tc .. X
 

hixxy

Senior Member
Messages
1,229
Location
Australia
Or could it be some of us like me that have had 3 Bioscreen stool tests, 4 Metametrix GI Effects tests and a bunch of microbial and parasite tests at conventional labs and treated everything are just still sick?
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,270
Location
UK
Secretive doctors put red flags up for me.

Neilk

I developed severe mcs when I contracted Lyme and improvement during anti-biotics is classic.

Even if you have had a negative test, it does not mean unfortunately that you do not have it. A number of doctors say you should go by symptoms.

I picked it up while I had cfs and got so very much worse.

Brenda
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Or could it be some of us like me that have had 3 Bioscreen stool tests, 4 Metametrix GI Effects tests and a bunch of microbial and parasite tests at conventional labs and treated everything are just still sick?

Sorry to hear this hixxy. So what treatments did you do ? Were you seeing a reliable integrative or functional doctor ? I understand the field is new still but experience seems important.

I'm a big believer in the paleo / wahls diet. Did you do this ?
Are you still on it because it takes time. Dr wahls explains all this so I won't even try.

I'm on keflex (uti - probable small kidney stone that I passed) right now and I have one more parasite to treat but I'm up for it. I've needed azo w probiotics every week or so for the last few years so I'm hoping this will kill off anything that may be causing these. I'm not sure what we're
going to do about this parasite.

fwiw, I'm the type of person who loves a challenge tho. The more complicated the better. Granted having my old brain back would help but I'm enjoying trying to solve this puzzle still. Lol .. Tc .. X
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
I was shocked when I learned this. I've only been researching health for 7 years but I find it imposssible to ignore root causes of symptoms.

Tc .. X

When the "root cause" of ME isnt known, its hard for them to be treating root causes and that is a rather high expectation. Its usually up to science and studies to discover root causes of illnesses and prove root them, not a doctor.

I think our ME/CFS specialists are currently just doing the best they can as the situation currently is. (There is the added thing of also very possibly loosing their medical licences if they start giving out too much experimental treatments).

Its the lack of funding for real science... we need to be beating up on.

So why aren't we hearing about these patients ? Why didn't my doctors make a big deal out of me
walking after 16 1/2 years ? Seriously ? I actually got some rude comments from my mds when I told them how much better I was feeling. Passing the rhomberg after 16 years of failing it, can't be overlooked. Or can it ?

Im sure our specialists probably hear of "miracle" stories every day and every person is telling them it was a different thing which helped.

Without numbers of patients saying exactly the same thing.. this illness is near impossible to sort out.. and real science is the only thing which probably can do.

It isnt our doctors role to be scientists, their role layes in just trying to treat in the best way they can, while under a heap of medical regulations. I think all ME/CFS specialists are doing quite a hard job.