B12--How much B2 needed to assimilate?

[Sushi]

Perhaps Rich could help us with this question as a number of us who have been following the threads about B2, realize that we may well have a deficiency, and some of us may also be taking considerable doses of hydrox B12 or methyl B12.

I am injecting 2.5 mg of hydrox B12 every other day and am wondering how much this might be depleting stores of B2. We have read that different B vitamins (as well as C and D) utilize B2 to be assimilated. So the question arises for me as to whether B12 is a "heavy" utilizer. Sorry not to have more scientific language for this question, but I think the meaning is clear.

I would like to continue "hefty" supplementation of B12, but don't want to further deplete B2. Since reading about the importance of B2, I have been taking 12.5 mg of the sublingual coenzymated type, 4 times per day.

Any thoughts on this question would be really appreciated.

Thanks,
Sushi

 

[Asklipia]

This is an excellent question, which I would formulate differently.
There has to be a balance between supplementation of B12 and of B2.
I have noticed that when starting to take extra B2, its seemed to potentialize the methylB12 I was taking.

It seems that in that process, supplementation with B12 encourages a Riboflavin deficiency. That was known from the Thirties. However the ratio must be very difficult to establish, given that everyone is on a different type of B12 supplementation, with a different amount, and on a different diet.
What would be useful would be to find out exactly which clinical signs to look for (not for dogs but for humans!). Not those of heavy riboflavin deficiency which are known, but the early signs.
What should we look for?

Asklipia

 

[adreno]

Lack of effect of riboflavin deficiency on vitamin B12-related metabolic pathways and fatty acid synthesis.

Frenkel EP, et al. Show all

Am J Clin Nutr. 1979 Jan;32(1):10-5.

Abstract

The neurological sequelae of riboflavin deficiency posed the possibility that this tissue injury was mediated by defective vitamin B12 function due to the requirement for riboflavin-dependent oxidoreductase systems in B12 coenzyme synthesis and function. Studies of the B12-dependent enzymatic reactions (5-methyltetrahydrofolic-homocysteine methyltransferase and methylmalonyl coenzyme A mutase) in a fiboflavin-deficient rat model documented normal B12 activity in liver and neural tissue. In addition, examination of neural lipids and separation and analysis of neural fatty acids failed to reveal the increased odd chain fatty acids characteristically seen in the B12-deficient state. Thus, the neural tissue sequelae of riboflavin deficiency do not appear to relate to B12 coenzyme function.

PMID 32763

 

[adreno]

Maybe in the case where the methylation cycle gets overdriven, with combined high doses of methylcobalamin and methylfolate, B2 becomes the rate limiting factor and is quickly depleted.

I am just guessing here, and I'm sure Rich can say more on this. But my thinking is that using hydroxycobalamin might be safer in this regard. That is unless all the B2 gets used up in the conversion of hydroxycobalamin.

 

[adreno]

In this trial, more than 5000 people were given 50mg B6, 2.5mg folic acid, and 1mg B12 daily for 5 years. No improvement in cardiovascular health was seen, but interestingly, no serious adverse effects were reported. Seemingly, none of them developed a B2 deficiency.

Homocysteine lowering with folic acid and B vitamins in vascular disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16531613/

 

[Rand56]

In this trial, more than 5000 people were given 50mg B6, 2.5mg folic acid, and 1mg B12 daily for 5 years. No improvement in cardiovascular health was seen, but interestingly, no serious adverse effects were reported. Seemingly, none of them developed a B2 deficiency.

Homocysteine lowering with folic acid and B vitamins in vascular disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16531613/

hi adreno

I do not see any mention of B2 in that study from the link you posted. Are you talking about from another study you read?

 

[adreno]

hi adreno

I do not see any mention of B2 in that study from the link you posted. Are you talking about from another study you read?

That's exactly the point. The participants were given relatively high doses of B6, B12 and folic acid, without it seemingly depleting B2 (no adverse effects was observed).

The study wasn't about B2, but it seems taking relatively high doses of those B vitamins did not cause any issues. Had it caused a B2 deficiency, I'm guessing the participants would have gotten ill, and they didn't.

It is not definite proof of anything, but it does indicate that B2 depletion from taking B vitamins isn't that common. At least that's how I interpret the data.

So, I'm guessing one of two things, either:

1. The amount of B2 needed for the conversion of B6, B12 and folic acid is small.

2. Because they used non-active B vitamins in the study, the methylation cycle was not overdriven, and riboflavin didn't become depleted.

These are just guesses. Hope it's clear enough.

 

[justy]

Hi all, i'm still trying to get my head round finding any data to support the hypothesis that B2 id depleted by taking other B vitamins and other supplements including vitamin D. Please could someone provide a link to a study or webpage or nutritionist who etc who explains this. It's not that i dont believe it, or dont want to, but i have never seen it mentioned anywhere else. Many processes in the body are dependant on a synergistic relationship between one vitamin and another, but surely that doesnt necessarily follow that they will then deplete each other, especially as the human body has a very low need for B2 and doesnt hold stores - its not hard to get enough through diet, unlike some other vitamins.

I have, BTW started taking B2 as from some interesting stuff i read it looks like i could have a deficiency. Although i dont think it was set up by taking B vitamins as ive not been taking B12 for more than a few months, and i dont take a massive dose. I dont take any other B vitamins currently and ive been ill for a long long time. I figure that for me B2 deficiency could be a part of my generally poor overall nutrient status. and if i knew what was causing that id probably be very well and happy and rich!
My response to B2 has been unnoticeable apart from yellow pee - which is only supposed to ocur if you take too much and i'm only taking 5 mg a day.
All the best, Justy.

 

[adreno]

Justy, anything over 1mg riboflavin will cause yellow pee, it's nothing to do with being deficient or not.

 

[justy]

Oh, O.K - all the information i have read states quite clearly that the yellow pee is caused by excess B2 being peed out that the body cant utilise, rather than the supplement always causes this. But hey ho, ill keep on with it at low dose anyway - see what happens over time.

 

[Dreambirdie]

I have had a very hard time taking B2. Even a dose as small as 12.5 mg/day has given me an intense detox reaction. Christine told me that this was due to the lead (which I have a high level of in my hair) being dumped out of my cells. AT this point I am better able to handle the MB12 than the B2--very strange!

Has anyone found a B2 supplement that is 10 mg or less per tablet? That way I might be able to cut the pill into quarters and try just 2.5 mg to start with. Or else I will have to pay the price of having it compounded at the pharmacy.

 

[Rand56]

hi Dreambirdie

The Douglas Labs Riboflavin 5 Phosphate I have is 10mg. It's in capsule form so maybe you can either eyeball or measure out smaller amonts if you need to. Yeah more expensive than regular Riboflavin, but atleast it's the smallest mg size I have found.

 

[Rand56]

Dreambirdie

I got mine from amazon.com. $11 for 100 caps. So it would still last you awhile at that price.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Thanks Rand56, I will check this out.

 

[richvank]

Hi, Sushi.

I think you will have plenty of B2 with the regimen you are following. The RDA for B2 is 1.1 milligram per day for women, and you are taking 50 mg. It is estimated that about 25 milligrams is the limit for how much can be absorbed in one batch.

Since the B vitamins participate together in the energy metabolism, it is a good idea to supplement them together. The reason is that if a person is deficient in one of them, she/he also is likely to be deficient in others, because the foods that supply B2 tend to be the same ones that supply the other B vitamins, and for the same reason: Plants and animals tend to use them together in their metabolisms, too. If a person is deficient in several B vitamins, and then supplements only the one that was limiting their metabolism, their rate of metabolism will rise until one of the others becomes limiting. That's why it makes sense to take them in a B-complex supplement.

It's true that B2 is important in the metabolism of B3, B6, folate, and B12, but this is taken account of in establishing the RDA.

B2 is one of the essential nutrients when treating to lift the partial methylation cycle block, and that's why it is included in the methylation protocols. I do find that quite a few PWMEs are deficient in B2 when I look at their urine organic acids panel results, but often they are also deficient in other B vitamins as well.

We do have to use high dosages of B12 in these protocols, but that doesn't raise the demand for B2. A lot of the B12 does not actually enter the metabolism with these protocols. We have to get the concentration in the cells high enough to overcome the problem of glutathione depletion, so that the reaction rate of B12 will reach normal. Low glutathione means that the affinity of the CblC complex will be very low for B12, so a higher concentration (necessitating a higher dosage) is necessary to get enough bound to this complex so that there will be enough converted to methyl and adenosyl B12.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Rich

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Sushi]

Hi, Sushi.

I think you will have plenty of B2 with the regimen you are following. The RDA for B2 is 1.1 milligram per day for women, and you are taking 50 mg. It is estimated that about 25 milligrams is the limit for how much can be absorbed in one batch.

Since the B vitamins participate together in the energy metabolism, it is a good idea to supplement them together. The reason is that if a person is deficient in one of them, she/he also is likely to be deficient in others, because the foods that supply B2 tend to be the same ones that supply the other B vitamins, and for the same reason: Plants and animals tend to use them together in their metabolisms, too. If a person is deficient in several B vitamins, and then supplements only the one that was limiting their metabolism, their rate of metabolism will rise until one of the others becomes limiting. That's why it makes sense to take them in a B-complex supplement.

It's true that B2 is important in the metabolism of B3, B6, folate, and B12, but this is taken account of in establishing the RDA.

B2 is one of the essential nutrients when treating to lift the partial methylation cycle block, and that's why it is included in the methylation protocols. I do find that quite a few PWMEs are deficient in B2 when I look at their urine organic acids panel results, but often they are also deficient in other B vitamins as well.

We do have to use high dosages of B12 in these protocols, but that doesn't raise the demand for B2. A lot of the B12 does not actually enter the metabolism with these protocols. We have to get the concentration in the cells high enough to overcome the problem of glutathione depletion, so that the reaction rate of B12 will reach normal. Low glutathione means that the affinity of the CblC complex will be very low for B12, so a higher concentration (necessitating a higher dosage) is necessary to get enough bound to this complex so that there will be enough converted to methyl and adenosyl B12.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Rich

Thanks so much Rich--that helps a lot!

I am not getting the "improved symptoms" or "distressing reactions" that some have experienced when increasing B2, so perhaps I am getting enough! I had been supplementing with the coenzymated, sublingual form that you mentioned several years ago when you noted that my B2 was low.

Thanks again,
Sushi

 

[dmholmes]

Has anyone found a B2 supplement that is 10 mg or less per tablet? That way I might be able to cut the pill into quarters and try just 2.5 mg to start with. Or else I will have to pay the price of having it compounded at the pharmacy.

Dreambirdie,

This 25 mg is the lowest plain riboflavin I've been able to find. It's a tablet, so should be able to cut into quarters for 6.25 dose.

 

[Dreambirdie]

Thanks dmholmes. This might also work.

Is there any down side to taking the Riboflavin 5 Phosphate? Is it as effective as the regular one?

 

[Rand56]

Thanks dmholmes. This might also work.

Is there any down side to taking the Riboflavin 5 Phosphate? Is it as effective as the regular one?

hi Dreambirdie

I don't think it really matters which one you take. I've tried both and I get an effect with either one. I know the R5P is dephosphyralated before entering cells so in this case there is no advantage of taking it over regular Riboflavin, but I find the R5P more convenient to use in my case because it's a smaller dose at 10mg. I initially got 100mg tabs of regular Riboflavin but it's a pain to try to cut it in 1/8ths.

 

[brenda]

I found it unbelievable that I was found to be very deficient of B2 when I had been taking a b-complex for years, taking active B12 and eating a diet high in B2 foods with the exception of dairy. I was eating very large amounts of green leafy vegetables and in fact was juicing them daily including dandelion leaves, parsley and dried green barley grass along with other vegetables, and eating other superfoods like chia seeds mountains of salads, and really just a perfect organic diet with at least 15 portions of fruit and vegetables a day and no alcohol. I was practically raw vegan for a while though generally ate plenty of meat and always eggs. As I am gluten free I was not eating any fortified products.

I did not have the usual deficiency symptoms.

I wonder if we have greater needs for B2 with our illness. In order to provide the rest of the B`s I have started to eat unpasturised cheese evey day and seem to be much better on that than pasturised dairy. I will take individual B`s if deficiencies show up and am wondering whether to take brewers yeast.

The thing I have learned recently is that we all have different nutritional needs and I think that it is impossible to have a one fit set of requirements though I am not an expert here and have no training.

best wishes
Brenda