B6 / P5P

[Pea]

So what is the deal with limiting somebody's B6 intake? Is it the FORM of B6, or is it that in those people with certain methylation defects they will develop too much ammonia?

I read how it is needed to get dopamine and serotonin.

 

[greenshots]

If they have the CBS defect, B6 and P5P will drive that up even more so you'll have more dumping. Some people with high homocysteine levels may seem to do well on this cuz it helps to drain more of this harmful amino but its at the expense of driving the cycle faster and losing more good stuff, too. My doc says these are the people who need higher doses of things or more supplements than others usually do since they're just draining everything out faster in this up regulation. It can also affect people with the COMT defect but I don't remember how.

Angela

 

[fozzaw]

So what is the deal with limiting somebody's B6 intake? Is it the FORM of B6, or is it that in those people with certain methylation defects they will develop too much ammonia?

B6 causes nerve damage at some individual threshold, that's why. P5P doesn't except in very rare cases.

 

[hixxy]

If they have the CBS defect, B6 and P5P will drive that up even more so you'll have more dumping. Some people with high homocysteine levels may seem to do well on this cuz it helps to drain more of this harmful amino but its at the expense of driving the cycle faster and losing more good stuff, too. My doc says these are the people who need higher doses of things or more supplements than others usually do since they're just draining everything out faster in this up regulation. It can also affect people with the COMT defect but I don't remember how.

B6 can increase neurotransmitter synthesis, maybe this just further exacerbates high dopamine and catecholamines resulting from COMT mutations?

 

[Pea]

But I WANT high dopamine - for my friend. His is low. He did much better on Fredddish protocol with 3 multis a day, so I'm trying to figure out which things that were reduced are to blame for this downslide.

Then I'm reading about dopamine & serotonin, and it says they need B6, so you are right in a reverse way for my situation. But new dr. mentioned something about using Holistic Health's B Complex that has low B6 implying that was good, so I wondered if Too Much B6 gets backed up in the body depending on what mutations you have and that's why she wanted B6 low. ??

 

[greenshots]

What Hixxy is referring to is the COMT and those with the double defect tend to spare dopamine but then levels get too high and they drop, causing mood swings so if he's the irritable/grouchy type, she wouldn't want to drive them even higher, only to have them plummet later and have more volatility. Its a delicate balance, Pea, nothng is simple with this cycle and that's why we need people who understand the pitfalls and keep us from falling into them.

I take it you increasd his vit D based on your last post, so this didn't help?

The next thing I would look at is the B12 doses, thats probably a major factor here. Just be careful about adding too many methylation specific B12's with other stuff or you could also get some serious mood swings.

I don't ever remember her saying anything good about plain B-6, only P5P so I think the only thing she likes about the Yasko B is that its low in B6 when others are usually so much higher. She always told me to stay away from adding in B6 but low dose P5P was ok. But I think she liked knowing the genes before she amped those up too much, I can't remember for sure though. Does he have them done already? Also, is he older or younger? I know that's a big factor since too many supplements like that can mobilize toxins too fast and eventually overcome the person. She was way more liberal with my kids than she has been with me. She told me the older we are, the harder we fall.

Angela

But I WANT high dopamine - for my friend. His is low. He did much better on Fredddish protocol with 3 multis a day, so I'm trying to figure out which things that were reduced are to blame for this downslide.

Then I'm reading about dopamine & serotonin, and it says they need B6, so you are right in a reverse way for my situation. But new dr. mentioned something about using Holistic Health's B Complex that has low B6 implying that was good, so I wondered if Too Much B6 gets backed up in the body depending on what mutations you have and that's why she wanted B6 low. ??

 

[Pea]

The below post by Rich in another thread explains shying away from the B6. I do think my friend has ammonia issues because he used to get so confused, moreso in the evenings. That had gone away, but last night it was back; he was on 3 multivitamins a day at one point before the new protocol and the confusion issues were gone so something in the multis & other supplements was helping methylation work better then is all I can figure. But it's good to know P5P is not so much an issue with ammonia, I will make sure he's getting enough of that. He was on 45 mg., now it's 7.5.

One possibility might be one or more upregulating polymorphisms in the CBS enzyme (cystathionine beta synthase). Dr. Amy Yasko has argued that this can cause an increase in ammonia production if the methylation cycle is supported without first treating to limit the flow into the transsulfuration pathway. She recommends lowering B6 supplementation and considering her "ammonia support RNA formulation." In the clinical study that Dr. Nathan and I carried out, there were some people who had such polymorphisms. We ignored them and gave all the patients the same basic protocol. Our lab testing showed that the recovery of the methylation cycle was slower in the people who had these polymorphisms, but by 6 to 9 months they had caught up with the others.

Best regards,

Rich

It just seems that many of the things that were eliminated or lowered from the Freddish protocol were things that apparently enhanced dopamine (D, B6, fish oil, multivitamin). I thought the swallowing (which needs dopamine) had gotten better with the re-addition of D, but was bad again last night, so I'm looking to go back on what we were before, but without any problem items i.e. iron, copper, calcium, B6. We sent in for his genes, but they won't be back for months of course. He was on high doses of things before with no mood swings. He's older. So now he REALLY doesn't believe this stuff is working, and I don't blame him, coupled with the fact that it's now difficult to swallow some of the pills. sigh.

 

[greenshots]

No doubt about it, its a balance that is miserable. if you go too far and add the wrong thing in, he'll probably quit but if its not working well, he may give up too. I err on the side of caution with myself but am much more aggressive with my kids. I think kids can handle more & we adults have alotta baggage! But you also need to instill faith in the treatment again so sometimes, being cautious could be a problem, too, especially if he is like most men who want it all right now! I've found several men on this site are that way while others seem to take more precautions but maybe that's due to making some bad treatment mistakes. Nothing teaches you patience when you've crashed! I'd add on one thing at a time to be careful but if you saw improvement and risk losing him now, you gotta go what you gotta do. On the other hand, you can't rush too much to fix things that have been going on for years & years because the fallout can be trouble. I sure understand though, that patience is tough when you're scared and sick.

Angela

The below post by Rich in another thread explains shying away from the B6. I do think my friend has ammonia issues because he used to get so confused, moreso in the evenings. That had gone away, but last night it was back; he was on 3 multivitamins a day at one point before the new protocol and the confusion issues were gone so something in the multis & other supplements was helping methylation work better then is all I can figure. But it's good to know P5P is not so much an issue with ammonia, I will make sure he's getting enough of that. He was on 45 mg., now it's 7.5.


It just seems that many of the things that were eliminated or lowered from the Freddish protocol were things that apparently enhanced dopamine (D, B6, fish oil, multivitamin). I thought the swallowing (which needs dopamine) had gotten better with the re-addition of D, but was bad again last night, so I'm looking to go back on what we were before, but without any problem items i.e. iron, copper, calcium, B6. We sent in for his genes, but they won't be back for months of course. He was on high doses of things before with no mood swings. He's older. So now he REALLY doesn't believe this stuff is working, and I don't blame him, coupled with the fact that it's now difficult to swallow some of the pills. sigh.