B2 I love you!

[Dreambirdie]

it seems to contradict my direct experience of having immediate brain-effects from sublingual absorption of riboflavin.

Mine too. I definitely had strong effects from the B2, within an hour after taking it, and I took the B2 orally, not sublingually.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Not Brenda,
But you can easily order a Doctors Data Inc hair elements test from Direct Labs. See "Hair Elements-DD KIT" on this page: https://www.directlabs.com/OrderTests/tabid/55/language/en-US/Default.aspx
You don't need a doctor to order it, their doctor signs off your request if I remember correctly.
HTH
Anne.


from

hi Brenda

Since I have never done a hair analysis before, do you or does anyone else know if you need a doctors request to order one or can I do this on my own? I currently have no health insurance and would rather not seek out a doctor..and pay extra to him/her just to order one for me. I'm fed up with doctors anyway when they have previously told me there is nothing wrong with me and all I need is "yet another" antidepressant.

 

[fozzaw]

Hi fozzaw, do you have a source for the above? I ask because it seems to contradict my direct experience of having immediate brain-effects from sublingual absorption of riboflavin.

I don't think there's any contradiction.

Many brain effects are somatic, e.g. brain problems from electrolyte issues, blood sugar issues, liver problems, gut etc. So you don't know if it had much to do with your brain without further information/experimentation. Secondly, even if it was related to FAD and your brain, it doesn't take a long time for something sublingual to have an effect.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=6CB...high-affinity transport system for FAD&f=true

 

[Rand56]

Not Brenda,
But you can easily order a Doctors Data Inc hair elements test from Direct Labs. See "Hair Elements-DD KIT" on this page: https://www.directlabs.com/OrderTests/tabid/55/language/en-US/Default.aspx
You don't need a doctor to order it, their doctor signs off your request if I remember correctly.
HTH
Anne.


from

Hi Anne


Thank you so much for the information. I will check into it.

 

[Lou]

Mine too. I definitely had strong effects from the B2, within an hour after taking it, and I took the B2 orally, not sublingually.

Same here, had marked improvement with concentration.

 

[SaraM]

Just put 50 mg active B2 under my tongue 10 minutes ago, and now feel extremely sleepy, dizzy, and some brain swelling. I have had ridges on my nails ,and a low level of Zinc for years. Next time I will try a lower dose of B2, both active and regular forms, before bed.

 

[Gavman]

As B2 seems to be quite strong and have strong effects, i wouldn't try overdosing it or sublingually taking it.
I'm upping my zinc while taking it as i seem to be having more issues light sensitivity wise.

 

[SaraM]

Put 50 mg regular B2 under my tongue and felt no difference. The same thing happened with B1. Benfotimaine is great and takes care of numbness in my feet, but regular B1 did nothing.

 

[penny]

As B2 seems to be quite strong and have strong effects, i wouldn't try overdosing it or sublingually taking it.
I'm upping my zinc while taking it as i seem to be having more issues light sensitivity wise.

So is light sensitivity related to zinc?
Im curious because I added b2 the last two days and this morning the tiny bits of sunlight coming through the curtains were like knives. I wouldn't have thought to connect the two but for reading your post...

 

[aquariusgirl]

Hi Aquarius, just for clarity i didnt say Amy Yasko would have noticed if we needed B2, but that if it depleted other vitamins she would have flagged this up - perhaps she has noticed this (although i think the jurys still out on the evidence for this so far) and that is why she recommends a higher dose of B2. 200mg is a lot, but 400mg is given for migraine, so i guess its not that much in comparison.
I've bought 20mg tabs (food state) but havent strated them yet.
all the best, Justy

yeah, it would be interesting to hear her view ...maybe one of her patients could post a question on her forum?

 

[Sallysblooms]

Sara, I agree, Benfotiamine is really wonderful.

 

[adreno]

Hi, dog person.

Here's a P.S. to my previous post: I see that an enzyme in the pathway from tryptophan to NAD, i.e. kynurenine monooxygenase, requires FAD as a cofactor. So there's another place where riboflavin sneaks in! -)

Keep up the good work on the dogs (and the people!)

One more thing: In the methylation cycle, where SAMe is produced, the enzyme methionine synthase reductase also needs FAD, so riboflavin deficiency will mess up both the folate metabolism and the methylation cycle. It's an important cofactor in the methylation treatments for ME/CFS that Freddd and I have suggested.

Best regards,

Rich

So, in your opinion, we can safely continue taking the methylation supplements, without any fear of depleting B2?

 

[Dog Person]

In my opinion, no.

Lets see if I can explain it in an analogy which may be easier to comprehend since many of you have told me that your minds can not take in complicated or detailed information easily and have asked that I try to say things as simply as possible. Say you want to bake a cake. You need flour, eggs, sugar, baking powder, flavoring, butter and a pinch of salt. It is very important that all these ingredients are present in correct quantities as well as ratios to each other or your cake will not bake correctly. If you add too much milk or flour, left out one of the two eggs needed, or forget to add the baking powder, then it will not bake correctly. Each of those ingredients has to be in balance for it to become a delicate cake. This is why I believe a high level of ATP production has not been achieved. The accurate balance of B vitamins required has not been supplied. Thus a cake is baked, but it may be runny, not rise or be crunchy instead of delicate not the result you desire.

To date, orthomolecular theory does not believe supplementation of the B vitamins needs to be in balance. They suggest that the body would remove those Bs that is did not need; thus mega dosing on all of them would achieve wonders. Conventional nutrition believes you just eat a balanced diet and your body will absorb what it needs that if this were not so then we would not have survived as a species. I disagree everywhere I look, I see people surviving but not well.

I have not found either of the above ways to produce ATP efficiently; in fact the opposite. Ill give another example. When you take a diuretic, it will deplete water soluble B vitamins, but not all in the same quantity because they do not all circulate in the bloodstream in the same levels. So by taking a large quantity of a specific B vitamin that your body does not store, is similar to taking a diuretic you will urinate the excess B vitamin away along with other B vitamins in ratio to what is circulated in the blood. The body will remove the other B vitamins that are already very deficient, due to lack of storage, thus exasperating the deficiency of those Bs.

Another factor that has to be taken into consideration is now many new RBCs does your body need to manufacturer at any given time. Under normal conditions you manufacturer 5 million/second and contain 2-3 trillion. Lets say you donated blood and must replace those lost RBCs as quickly as possible. The B vitamins and minerals that are required for production of these new RBCs will be used up at a higher rate than normal and will need to be supplemented in a higher amount than the body normally needs. The body has the ability to produce inadequate RBCs that carrying some oxygen but it is always at the ready in anticipation of receiving the correct supplements to manufacturer new and correct RBCs. When you give it just a few of the supplements to produce the correct RBCs, it will very quickly deplete the other items that are not supplemented in ratio to what is being supplemented in an effort to create blood cells that have optimal oxygen carrying capacity.

This is what I have learned from the hair charts. I determined the nutritional balance and what ingredients needed to be added to accomplish production of ATP. If any one of the B vitamins that are used in the process were out of balance with each other, then little or no ATP will be produced and again man will survive, but not very well.

I have now observed 25 hair charts of people with a diagnosis of ME. Though this is a very small sampling for a group of people that numbers in the thousands worldwide, it is a start. Further to this, what is striking is that all the charts have tremendous commonality. Not a single chart indicates ability to utilize adequate levels of iron for production of RBCs. (This is not the same as having low levels of iron it is the opposite too much iron in the liver but unable to utilize it.) Every chart indicates production of protoporphryns that contain lead and zinc, instead of hemoglobin containing iron. I believe this is why the zinc is very low on the hair chart. Most of it is going into RBCs and not being utilized by the body where it should. And by continuing to supplement more zinc, this imbalance is only perpetuated. (http://hwmaint.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/266/33/22125)

These factors strongly suggests there is a specific nutritional imbalance to ME. This is what I am writing as my theory. I will post it on my website when it is completed and put a link on this forum. That way anyone that wants to read my opinion/experience can.

 

[fozzaw]

Ok, I can certainly see an advantage if the cost of phosphorylation is high (in terms of ATP, I presume).

I am not sure I understand what you mean by the red herring statement, though?

In this book (Introduction to Clinical Nutrition), it is also stated that phosphorylated vitamins don't readily cross cell membranes:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Yw...l=en&sa=X&ei=EOhtT_PQN4eDOoOI8fIF&redir_esc=y

It is a red herring because it's not relevant to the question of whether sublingual FMN would outperform oral riboflavin.

If all riboflavin must be dephosphorylated upon cell entry, the bigger issue is getting riboflavin of any species into the plasma. This is because there is a net energy gain from dephosphorylation and it is metabolically profitable. Because it is not a bottleneck it therefore is not relevant. Any phosphorylation IS a barrier.

 

[adreno]

It is a red herring because it's not relevant to the question of whether sublingual FMN would outperform oral riboflavin.

If all riboflavin must be dephosphorylated upon cell entry, the bigger issue is getting riboflavin of any species into the plasma. This is because there is a net energy gain from dephosphorylation and it is metabolically profitable. Because it is not a bottleneck it therefore is not relevant. Any phosphorylation IS a barrier.

Thanks, I get it now.

 

[adreno]

In my opinion, no.

Lets see if I can explain it in an analogy which may be easier to comprehend since many of you have told me that your minds can not take in complicated or detailed information easily and have asked that I try to say things as simply as possible. Say you want to bake a cake. You need flour, eggs, sugar, baking powder, flavoring, butter and a pinch of salt. It is very important that all these ingredients are present in correct quantities as well as ratios to each other or your cake will not bake correctly. If you add too much milk or flour, left out one of the two eggs needed, or forget to add the baking powder, then it will not bake correctly. Each of those ingredients has to be in balance for it to become a delicate cake. This is why I believe a high level of ATP production has not been achieved. The accurate balance of B vitamins required has not been supplied. Thus a cake is baked, but it may be runny, not rise or be crunchy instead of delicate not the result you desire.

To date, orthomolecular theory does not believe supplementation of the B vitamins needs to be in balance. They suggest that the body would remove those Bs that is did not need; thus mega dosing on all of them would achieve wonders. Conventional nutrition believes you just eat a balanced diet and your body will absorb what it needs that if this were not so then we would not have survived as a species. I disagree everywhere I look, I see people surviving but not well.

I have not found either of the above ways to produce ATP efficiently; in fact the opposite. Ill give another example. When you take a diuretic, it will deplete water soluble B vitamins, but not all in the same quantity because they do not all circulate in the bloodstream in the same levels. So by taking a large quantity of a specific B vitamin that your body does not store, is similar to taking a diuretic you will urinate the excess B vitamin away along with other B vitamins in ratio to what is circulated in the blood. The body will remove the other B vitamins that are already very deficient, due to lack of storage, thus exasperating the deficiency of those Bs.

Another factor that has to be taken into consideration is now many new RBCs does your body need to manufacturer at any given time. Under normal conditions you manufacturer 5 million/second and contain 2-3 trillion. Lets say you donated blood and must replace those lost RBCs as quickly as possible. The B vitamins and minerals that are required for production of these new RBCs will be used up at a higher rate than normal and will need to be supplemented in a higher amount than the body normally needs. The body has the ability to produce inadequate RBCs that carrying some oxygen but it is always at the ready in anticipation of receiving the correct supplements to manufacturer new and correct RBCs. When you give it just a few of the supplements to produce the correct RBCs, it will very quickly deplete the other items that are not supplemented in ratio to what is being supplemented in an effort to create blood cells that have optimal oxygen carrying capacity.

This is what I have learned from the hair charts. I determined the nutritional balance and what ingredients needed to be added to accomplish production of ATP. If any one of the B vitamins that are used in the process were out of balance with each other, then little or no ATP will be produced and again man will survive, but not very well.

I have now observed 25 hair charts of people with a diagnosis of ME. Though this is a very small sampling for a group of people that numbers in the thousands worldwide, it is a start. Further to this, what is striking is that all the charts have tremendous commonality. Not a single chart indicates ability to utilize adequate levels of iron for production of RBCs. (This is not the same as having low levels of iron it is the opposite too much iron in the liver but unable to utilize it.) Every chart indicates production of protoporphryns that contain lead and zinc, instead of hemoglobin containing iron. I believe this is why the zinc is very low on the hair chart. Most of it is going into RBCs and not being utilized by the body where it should. And by continuing to supplement more zinc, this imbalance is only perpetuated. (http://hwmaint.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/266/33/22125)

These factors strongly suggests there is a specific nutritional imbalance to ME. This is what I am writing as my theory. I will post it on my website when it is completed and put a link on this forum. That way anyone that wants to read my opinion/experience can.

Thank you, Dog Person. I was actually addressing Rich, but I'm glad you answered as well.

My worry about focusing solely on B2, is that we would just create another imbalance. Many of us have digestive issues, and problems absorbing nutrients from food.

So by only supplementing B2, won't we just deplete other B vitamins?

Also, it seems most of the problems relate to the fact that B2 is used in the phosphorylation of the other B vitamins. But what if we ingest B vitamins that are already phosphorylated?

 

[aquariusgirl]

I am wondering the same thing: say you are very depleted in B1 & B2, should you supplement both at once or ???

 

[Rand56]

Ok is it just me or is anyone else getting more confused? LOL I think some more clarification and understanding has to happen here. Dog Person, "in your opinion", are you implying that even the primary methylating supps such as methylfolate and B-12 are not necessary "until" B2 stores are brought up and will be beneficial only after B2 stores are optimized, OR is B2 just the "magic pill" so to speak and taking additional methyfolate and B12 is not helpful in your opinion? If it's the latter, what about the many people on here that have the MTHFR polymorphism who have a dimished capacity to convert folic acid to methyfolate? Will added B2 actually circumvent this?

Also, by what Adreno said above, "So by only supplementing B2, won't we just deplete other B Vitamins?", I believe there has been some of us on here that are trying to find some substantiation to your claim of this and we are having a hard time finding it. Can you cite some references to this or is it just now being found out from your research? If it is true, would it only be true if someone took a B-complex that was not in it's bioactive components or would even taking B-Complex in it's coenzymated form further deplete B2 stores?

 

[Rand56]

Oops sorry I meant to say Dog Person's previous claim of taking B-complex further depletes stores of B2

 

[Rand56]

Can liver/age spots be a sign of Riboflavin deficiency? I've done some searching and some sites do say this is a sign of deficiency of it but other sites don't mention lack of Riboflavin as a cause.

I have had an age spot on my face cheek about the size of a dime for quite some time.