Liposomal Glutathione

[richvank]

Hi, Liz.

I don't think you will need to raise folate or B12 because of adding glutathione. In fact, based on a recent study in Korea, I think that raising glutathione will make the B12 more effective, because it raises the affinity of part of the intracellular B12 processing for B12.

Taking it at night might be a good thing to try.

I haven't heard from very many people who have added glutathione to the methylation treatment. I do still believe that it is necessary to lift the partial block in the methylation cycle in order to get glutathione to stay up on a permanent basis, but as I have learned more about the problem of excitotoxicity in the early part of this treatment, as well as this new information about glutathione raising the B12 affinity, I have become more in favor of adding glutathione to the methylation protocol, either liposomal or acetyl glutathione. But I am concerned about making sure there is enough B2 and B3 when this is done, or it may shift the ratio of reduced to oxidized glutathione too low, and also rob other reactions of these nutrients, if they are in short supply.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[lizw118]

Thanks Rich
Very helpful. What dose of B2 and Niacin do you think I should take? Any idea of a ballpark? Right now I take 100-200 mg B2 and 300 mg Niacin daily. The flush niacin seems to help more than the non-flush type. I am not sure why that is.
Thanks
Liz

 

[richvank]

Hi, Liz.

I think those dosages should be adequate. I don't know why the flush niacin seems to help more. Perhaps it is more readily converted to NAD and NADP, which are the active forms. NADP is the one needed by glutathione reductase.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Athene]

Hi Liz,

What is the dosage of glutathione you are taking? My doc has just prescribed glutathione injections for me, 600mg on alternate days. Is that similar to the dose you are on?

I am already taking high doses of the B vits that Rich mentioned.
I also had my blood B12 measured recently and it was extremely, excessively high. I wonder if taking glutathione would mean my body manages to use it properly?
I seem to have problems making use of various methylation supps, particularly folinic acid and B12.

This is all very confusing. I hope this stuff will help.
The first one gots rid of my nerve pain and muscle weakness really fast, in just a few hours, but the effect wore off by the afternoon of day 2 (yesterday). And then I felt as if I had a massive accumulation of toxins.
I've just had the second dose and it seems to be doing the same thing. I feel "cleaner" and less achey and weak, but I am wondering if this is a rebound effect and if that means this is not really doing me good.... which seems to be what Rich found in supplementing glutathione for people who haven't got their methylation cycle up and running properly.

 

[lizw118]

Hi Athene
Each packet of the liposomal stuff is 480 mg. I took two per day. I have high B12 in serum tests, too, but of course it's hard to know if that is translating into cellular activity. I assume I am methylating more properly because I have been feeling better and have been on the B12 and folate for a while, but I guess I don't really know for sure. How do we know we are methylating properly other than testing?
Do you think you need to take glutathione every day?
Liz

 

[lizw118]

I am still thinking my symptoms might be related to adrenal weakness, because my heart rate has gone up and I get dizzy when I stand. Maybe I should switch to a glutathione supplement without phosphatidylserine in it. Does anyone have a good recommendation for liposomal glut. without the extra stuff?
Liz

 

[aquariusgirl]

Athene
check this out : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXjVuUH5Sb0&feature=related
it could be that the gluthatione is mobilising toxins & Dr Klinghardt points out that glutathione will only move the toxins out of the cell into the bodily fluids (or intracellular spaces).. at that point you need something to bind it.. or it just moves back into the cell, using up valuable energy.

 

[lizw118]

I looked on the label and saw that the Livon labs glutathione has Phosphatidylcholine, Phosphatidylelthanolamine, Phosphatidylinsitol, not phosphatidylserine. I'm not sure of the difference. I did notice that today I felt better after taking potassium. I watched the Klinghardt video. Interesting. I guess we need binding agents to take the toxins out.
Liz

 

[Athene]

Athene
check this out : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXjVuUH5Sb0&feature=related
it could be that the gluthatione is mobilising toxins & Dr Klinghardt points out that glutathione will only move the toxins out of the cell into the bodily fluids (or intracellular spaces).. at that point you need something to bind it.. or it just moves back into the cell, using up valuable energy.

Thank you so much for this link!
Best quote: "Glutathione mobilises toxins out of the cells into the blood, but it will not take them all the way from there into your toilet" !!!
This was exactly what my instinct was telling me was happening, I feel as if toxins are swirling around and then not leaving, which fits with Richvank's warnings that supplementing glutathione without first mending the methylation cycle doesn't work.

But what do I need to take as a binder? I tried chlorella in the past and have a bad intolerance to it. I need some alternative... :-(

 

[Athene]

Hi Athene
Each packet of the liposomal stuff is 480 mg. I took two per day. I have high B12 in serum tests, too, but of course it's hard to know if that is translating into cellular activity. I assume I am methylating more properly because I have been feeling better and have been on the B12 and folate for a while, but I guess I don't really know for sure. How do we know we are methylating properly other than testing?
Do you think you need to take glutathione every day?
Liz

I think it might be better if I took a lower dose of glutathione, and every day, instead of this large dose on alternating days. But it comes in an injectable phial at that dose, so I am stuck with it. Also, the injection hurts a lot, so skipping a day is a relief.

My doc said the high B12 definitely means the vit is NOT being taken up by the cells, not that I have more of it than I need. I still have symptoms of insufficient B12 so it is evidently just not getting to where it needs to go.

If your symptoms are due to adrenal weakness, you need more salt and less potassium.
I spent years taking potassium, it helps you feel better initially but then drains even more fluid out of the cells, and makes you worse than before. Salt drives the fluid back into the cells. Therefore, if you have adrenal weakness, you should eat salty NOT sugary snacks whenever you feel light headed, and drink plenty of water.

To be sure this is the situation, though, I would get your early morning fasting cortisol tested, and also have your electrolyte balance checked. You need bang on the right amount of all the electrolytes, not too much not too little. (I have a heart condition and they always check my electrolytes. I was shocked to find out how dangerous it can be playing with the levels if you are not raising the right one). You should also get your urine tested for sodium content; if you have adrenal weakness then you will be draining sodium out in your urine, and chronically low.

I started a thread about adrenal weakness and all the signs. Basically I summarised the book Adrenal Fatigue by James Wilson!
You could have a look at this to see if you see to have other indications of weakened adrenal glands.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...ing-cortisol-and-feeling-DRASTICALLY-improved

 

[richvank]

Athene
check this out : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXjVuUH5Sb0&feature=related
it could be that the gluthatione is mobilising toxins & Dr Klinghardt points out that glutathione will only move the toxins out of the cell into the bodily fluids (or intracellular spaces).. at that point you need something to bind it.. or it just moves back into the cell, using up valuable energy.[/QUOQ

Hi, AQ and the group.

I have high regard for Dr. Klinghardt, but I'm sorry to say that he has not given correct information in this youtube interview about the mechanism of glutathione conjugation of toxins.

The glutathione transferases do not do what he said they do. What they do in fact is to serve as catalysts to bind glutathione to toxins. The conjugated toxins then pass out of the cell via the multidrug resistance associated protein. If these conjugates are formed in liver, they can either be excreted intact in the bile, or they can be converted to mercapturic acids in the kidney, and then excreted in the urine. In either case, a glutathione molecule is lost from the body.

The process of formation of a mercapturic acid is as follows: First, glutamic acid is removed by the enzyme gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase. Then, glycine is removed by the enzyme aminopeptidase M. This leaves cysteine conjugated with the toxin. The next step is the acetylation of the cysteine by N-acetyltransferase. The result is a mercapturic acid, which is excreted in the urine.

This information comes from Casarett and Doul's Toxicology, sixth edition, by C.D. Klaassen.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[xrunner]

What about adding supplements or herbals that speed up the synthesis of glutathione, would that work as an alternative to direct glutathione supplementation?

 

[Sallysblooms]

You can do that also. I do both.

 

[xrunner]

I was just wondering whether that could cause collateral problems over time, sort of revving up too much an engine that was working on a few cylinders?

 

[lizw118]

Thanks Rich
That was confusing for me, too, because I always understood (in my simple way) glutathione to be a sacrificial kind of molecule, binding to toxins and then being lost. I am relieved because I was concerned about adding a chelation agent in with everything else.
Liz

Hi, AQ and the group.

I have high regard for Dr. Klinghardt, but I'm sorry to say that he has not given correct information in this youtube interview about the mechanism of glutathione conjugation of toxins.

The glutathione transferases do not do what he said they do. What they do in fact is to serve as catalysts to bind glutathione to toxins. The conjugated toxins then pass out of the cell via the multidrug resistance associated protein. If these conjugates are formed in liver, they can either be excreted intact in the bile, or they can be converted to mercapturic acids in the kidney, and then excreted in the urine. In either case, a glutathione molecule is lost from the body.

The process of formation of a mercapturic acid is as follows: First, glutamic acid is removed by the enzyme gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase. Then, glycine is removed by the enzyme aminopeptidase M. This leaves cysteine conjugated with the toxin. The next step is the acetylation of the cysteine by N-acetyltransferase. The result is a mercapturic acid, which is excreted in the urine.

This information comes from Casarett and Doul's Toxicology, sixth edition, by C.D. Klaassen.

Best regards,

Rich[/QUOTE]

 

[aquariusgirl]

Ok, rich, thanks for that. So what would you recommend then in the case where a person is low in reduced glutathione, low in selenium & has SNPs in their glutathione S transferases genes? Wouldn't binders, chelators add an addtl layer of security that the toxins will get excreted?

 

[Athene]

More questions from me, I'm afraid.

I find this all so confusing anyway, and I also have the problem today of just about the worst brainfog I've ever had. I think I have glutathione withdrawal or glutathione rebound effect.

Basically, both doses have made me feel more alert and pain free within a few hours, which lasted about half a day, then was followed by a sleepless night (tired andnot exactly wired but not remotely sleepy) and then the next day full of pain and aches, worse than usual. Now I am on day three, supposedly another glutathione injection day, but I am not taking it again, I've decided glutathione sucks!
What could be going on here?
Rich, do you think this shows I have not got my methylation working at all?
Or are there any other theories as to why supplementing glutathione doesn't work?

Next questions is, Rich, are you saying that glutathione alone definitely will carry toxins all the way out of me, without needing any additional support?

Also, aquariusgirl, you mentioned selenium, where does that come into it?

Apologies to all, I am sure I am asking daft or repeat questions, I repeat, I am operating on about 20 percent of my usual brain today. And my usual brain is probably only just good enough to outwit a goldfish.
:-(

 

[Vegas]

I experimented with liposomal GSH, and it wasn't pretty. I have also extensively trialed supplements that enhance the activity of the GST Enzymes, with mixed results. My interpretation is that those substances that bolster GST activity are helpful, but there is often some associated detox symptoms. As for GSH, I'm wondering about the wisdom of using liposomal GSH, which is so readily bioavailable, in a population of very sick people. Over the years, I have seen so many people on this and other ME/CFS forums who have suffered very adverse reactions from glutathione i/v's. While the bioavailability of liposomal forms is not as high, it is pretty darn close. At the very least, I think one has to use caution with liposomal and obviously intravenous glutathione, and they should avoid it altogether if they have a known burden of heavy metals.

There are many seemingly paradoxical responses to supplements, some of them are apparently less harmful than others. It is certainly not always possible to tell immediately if you are doing more harm than good, but a recurrent fatigue response, from my experience, seems to be symptom produced by unchecked oxidative stress. Could it not be that the benefits of the antioxidant may initially tip the scale towards improved symptoms, but later the oxidative stress caused by the mobilization of toxins can result in adverse symptoms. In other words you get a brief period of feeling good then you have to actually complete the excretion of these substances, and your body is just not capable of doing so. Stimulating methylation and increasing GSH via B12/folate/Sam-E, etc. is obviously very different than directly injecting or liposomally absorbing exogenous supplements into blood plasma. If you have a great burden of toxins, vastly compromised enzymes & inefficient phase II conjugation, intestinal permeability, low NADPH, otherwise poor functioning antioxidant network, etc., this is a recipe for problems. I think people would be, on the whole, better off if they follow Rich's general philosophy of letting the body convert what is necessary, where practicable. Use the indirect method to build GSH, and take exogenous supplementation very cautiously or not at all.

From my own experimentation with a very significant metal burden, I realized just how adverse introducing high thiol foods can be. Just taking a garlic supplement (very high thiol food) for a couple of days caused me great pain. Things like NAC & whey lifted me up a bit initially, then were usually accompanied by fatigue. It really became apparent after starting chelation that my low cysteine and GSH may have had a protective role, specifically to limit the mobilization of metals. Reducing metal distribution may be prioritized over the antioxidant benefits of higher GSH. I don't think it can be disputed that if one has heavy metals in any significant quantity, and they suddenly introduce a large number of thiol groups from the GSH into the blood, heavy metals will be mobilized. The GSH is not going to magically escort metals out of the body if you have a great burden. The effects of redistribution are potentially much more lasting than the benefits of the short-lived GSH. It seems likely that those with much less significant "toxic" burdens and who are clearly not metal toxic, can tolerate and do well with these forms of glutathione, but heavy metals seem to be a special exception.

More questions from me, I'm afraid.

I find this all so confusing anyway, and I also have the problem today of just about the worst brainfog I've ever had. I think I have glutathione withdrawal or glutathione rebound effect.

Basically, both doses have made me feel more alert and pain free within a few hours, which lasted about half a day, then was followed by a sleepless night (tired andnot exactly wired but not remotely sleepy) and then the next day full of pain and aches, worse than usual. Now I am on day three, supposedly another glutathione injection day, but I am not taking it again, I've decided glutathione sucks!
What could be going on here?
Rich, do you think this shows I have not got my methylation working at all?
Or are there any other theories as to why supplementing glutathione doesn't work?

Next questions is, Rich, are you saying that glutathione alone definitely will carry toxins all the way out of me, without needing any additional support?

Also, aquariusgirl, you mentioned selenium, where does that come into it?

Apologies to all, I am sure I am asking daft or repeat questions, I repeat, I am operating on about 20 percent of my usual brain today. And my usual brain is probably only just good enough to outwit a goldfish.
:-(

 

[aquariusgirl]

Vegas: I have had ups and downs with glutathione that have made me v. leery of it. Back in the day, when I was very toxic, I could tolerate it. The only adverse effect was sleepiness. Now I get terrible head pain, all sorts of weird symptoms. I have $200 worth of IV glut sitting in my fridge that I can't use from my most recent skirmish...

I am beginning to realise that heavy metal toxicity is my key problem @ the moment & the thing that is holding everything else up,but I suspect KPU or at least a b6 and zinc deficiency.

45mg of zinc makes me detox uncontrollably...& I have severe hypochloridia.


Athene: my understanding is that selenium supports or is the cofactor for the glutathione s transferases enzymes.. so it supports glutathione conjugation to toxins. You might wanna double check that. Working off my not so good memory. Also, the IV glut I get has to be diluted in a 1:3 ratio with saline to make sure it doesn't sting..(i think u said yr shots were stinging... just fyi)

 

[xrunner]

I experimented with liposomal GSH, and it wasn't pretty. I have also extensively trialed supplements that enhance the activity of the GST Enzymes, with mixed results.

Hi Vegas,
what supplements have you tried?