Hair Mineral Testing

[Little Bluestem]

There is still many ongoing research projects being conducted by leading researchers many of which most people are unaware of. This is this time around scientists are keeping quiet. That was more of consensus after the XMRV blowup. So if it seems quiet, it is but it doesn't mean that things are not happening in the background.
Eco

For some of us, our disorder may seem quiet, while things are happening in the background. On my last visit to my physician I learned that my liver is no longer function correctly (high ALT enzymes). If Christine can get my liver back with the program, I will be happy. Maybe then I will live long enough for the leading researchers to get their research projects finished and the results published. I will admit to being skeptical that the ME/CFS will be resolved.

I did not find those quotes about Christine on quackwatch. I do not think the paper she is co-writing will have anything to do with ME/CFS.

 

[adreno]

SJB944, a negative reaction to a placebo drug is quite possible. It is termed nocebo:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo

 

[SJB944]

Thanks Adreno, that's interesting. I just think classifying a reaction as placebo is a little simplistic.

 

[SJB944]

And by definition, I assume a negative reaction to something which you think will help isn't a nocebo?

 

[aprilk1869]

As you know Christine believes a lot of problems stem from the fact you have iron in the wrong form. I was interested to know how pathogens affect iron metabolism and came across some interesting info by a researcher at Oxford University who talks about Hepatitis C, malaria, HIV and TB in relation to iron and the immune system.

http://www.ndm.ox.ac.uk/hal-drakesmith-iron-metabolism

 

[aquariusgirl]

Yes, people, all we have to do is wait & the scientific community will come to our rescue...Patent silliness.

 

[brenda]

Yeah and they`re keeping it secret and one day they are going to give us all a nice big surprise :victory:

 

[Dreambirdie]

Yeah, and the surprise will be that we were never really sick in the first place, and all we needed was some EXERCISE!

 

[brenda]

Yippeee! its all in our head!

 

[Little Bluestem]

As you know Christine believes a lot of problems stem from the fact you have iron in the wrong form. I was interested to know how pathogens affect iron metabolism and came across some interesting info by a researcher at Oxford University who talks about Hepatitis C, malaria, HIV and TB in relation to iron and the immune system.

http://www.ndm.ox.ac.uk/hal-drakesmith-iron-metabolism

This is very interesting. I wonder if it would apply to people with viral onset ME/CFS.

Since it says that pathogens really need iron to grow and divide and cause disease, I was wondering if releasing iron from the liver with B2 would be a good thing. But it says, For Hepatitis C virus it's a bit clearer, more iron accumulation in the liver is toxic, and this toxic effect of the iron adds to the damage that the virus is also doing to the liver and worsens disease. I definitely have an unhappy liver, so I think I need to get the iron out.

I dont have any idea how much of the original virus remains in my system after all of these years. I think a lot of my problems now are secondary effects (possibly of methylation cycle block).

 

[froufox]

This is what I have been wondering about too Little Bluestem. I did some research last week on this and found info on Hepcidin..

First this page describes low iron and low TIBC/transferrin saturation as being part of the clinical picture of "anaemia of chronic disease"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_iron-binding_capacity

Anemia of chronic disease also known as Anemia of *Chronic Inflammation* (which of course is very relevant to us as PWME) describes how the body regulates iron metabolism via a peptide hormone called Hepcidin, in order to protect itself " eg by keeping iron away from bacterial pathogens". Many of us have chronic bacterial infections eg H Pylori, Chlamydia Pneumoniae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemia_of_chronic_disease
Quote from this page: "Anemia of chronic disease, also referred to as anemia of inflammatory response [1], or ACD, is a form of anemia seen in chronic illness,[2] e.g. from chronic infection, chronic immune activation, or malignancy. New discoveries suggest that the syndrome is likely largely the result of the body's production of hepcidin, a master regulator of human iron metabolism."

Also: "In response to inflammatory cytokines, increasingly IL-6,[3] the liver produces increased amounts of hepcidin. Hepcidin in turn stops ferroportin from releasing iron stores. Inflammatory cytokines also appear to affect other important elements of iron metabolism, including decreasing ferroportin expression, and probably directly blunting erythropoiesis by decreasing the ability of the bone marrow to respond to erythropoietin."

This is interesting to me as my IL-6 is high.

Then I came across this interesting abstract (havent read the full paper) which discusses the relationship between iron absorption/the role of hepcidin, infections, inflammation and nutritional status, inc deficiencies in Vitamin A and Riboflavin!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18214023

I keep wondering how Christine's ideas fit into our, as PWME, with our chronic infections and chronic inflammation.

 

[brenda]

When Christine told me that B2 would release the iron stored in my liver, I asked her about the possibility of the iron increasing the Lyme infection (and most likely others) that I have. She did not give me an answer to this. For myself, I am willing for it to happen and then treat the infections (I currently use a rife device) in order to bring them down, and there are other treatments apart from antibiotics. I decided that it was better to go ahead with it.

 

[aprilk1869]

When Christine told me that B2 would release the iron stored in my liver, I asked her about the possibility of the iron increasing the Lyme infection (and most likely others) that I have. She did not give me an answer to this. For myself, I am willing for it to happen and then treat the infections (I currently use a rife device) in order to bring them down, and there are other treatments apart from antibiotics. I decided that it was better to go ahead with it.

Lyme bacteria doesn't feed on iron.

"A fundamental tenet of microbial pathogenesis is that bacterial pathogens must overcome host iron limitation to establish a successful infection. Surprisingly, the Lyme disease pathogen Borrelia burgdorferi has bypassed this host defense by eliminating the need for iron. "
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/288/5471/1651.abstract

Although theoretically if you have other infections, then starving them of iron may in turn help your immune system cope with the Lyme disease better.

 

[gu3vara]

Apparently milk thistle is good at chelating excess iron, might be useful to take now and then, could help with the metal taste in mouth some experience on b2.

 

[aprilk1869]

It seems that anything that can trigger a release of IL-6 could then go onto causing problems with increased hepcidin and therefore issues with iron metabolism. Exercise, injuries, burns and infections can cause the increase of IL-6.

Also, it seems that riboflavin reduces IL-6 levels

Riboflavin inhibits IL-6 expression and p38 activation in islet cells.

Riboflavin is a water-soluble vitamin that reduces the production of proinflammatory mediators and oxygen radicals. Because islet beta-cells are very sensitive to oxidative stress and to cytokines, we investigated the possible cytoprotective effects of riboflavin on insulinoma NIT-1 cells and on isolated rodent islets. NIT-1 cells and islets cultured in the presence or absence of 10 microM riboflavin were studied at baseline and after exposure to cytokines (TNF-alpha, IL-1beta, INF-gamma). Riboflavin treatment did not affect islet cell viability as assessed by flow cytometry for caspases activation. However, riboflavin prevented the cytokine-induced increase in IL-6 mRNA expression and p38 phosphorylation analyzed by real-time PCR and immunoassay, respectively. In summary, nontoxic doses of riboflavin prevent cytokines-induced p38 phosphorylation and IL-6 upregulation in islet cells. This observation, together with the safety profile of riboflavin in the clinical setting, makes it an appealing agent for islet cytoprotection in islet transplantation protocols.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18714675

 

[aprilk1869]

Further to my above post, I've found out that signal transducer and activator of transcription 3 (STAT3) is needed to release IL-6. So far I've found out that STAT3 appears to be kept under control by glutathione, of course as we know B2 is needed to recycle glutathione.

Interleukin-6 induces hepcidin expression through STAT3
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1895528/?tool=pubmed

S-glutathionylation impairs signal transducer and activator of transcription 3 activation and signaling.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18988672

To be honest, this is outside my level of understanding so I hope someone like Rich can confirm I've connected the dots in the correct way.

 

[Little Bluestem]

Apparently milk thistle is good at chelating excess iron, might be useful to take now and then, could help with the metal taste in mouth some experience on b2.

I think the emphasis might need to be on now and then. Christine told me, who already has elevated ALT liver enzyme, not to take milk thistle. She said that while it removes iron and copper from the liver and body, it also uses up B2 so fast that I could end up in liver failure if I am not very careful at this point. I do not know that this applies to others. When Christine surfaces for air after finishing the paper, I am going ask her if I can take milk thistle once I get my B2 level increased.

 

[Little Bluestem]

The ideal treatment for anemia of chronic disease is to treat the chronic disease successfully. Barring that, many patients with anemia of chronic disease simply live with the effects of the anemia as part of enduring the limits placed on them by other aspects of their underlying medical conditions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemia_of_chronic_disease

You could substitute ME/CFS for anemia of chronic disease in the above.

 

[gu3vara]

I think the emphasis might need to be on now and then. Christine told me, who already has elevated ALT liver enzyme, not to take milk thistle. She said that while it removes iron and copper from the liver and body, it also uses up B2 so fast that I could end up in liver failure if I am not very careful at this point. I do not know that this applies to others. When Christine surfaces for air after finishing the paper, I am going ask her if I can take milk thistle once I get my B2 level increased.

Interesting, thx!

I asked her and she said she was working only with vitamins and minerals, so I assumed she didn't know if it was ok or not. I'll put that on hold...

 

[Sushi]

I think the emphasis might need to be on now and then. Christine told me, who already has elevated ALT liver enzyme, not to take milk thistle. She said that while it removes iron and copper from the liver and body, it also uses up B2 so fast that I could end up in liver failure if I am not very careful at this point. I do not know that this applies to others. When Christine surfaces for air after finishing the paper, I am going ask her if I can take milk thistle once I get my B2 level increased.

Hi,

This may have been something for you personally. I have been taking milk thistle for years and always have normal liver enzymes. I do also supplement B2, and have for years.

I also have a friend who had Hep C (and is one of those who don't respond to the usual treatments) and high doses of milk thistle kept his liver functioning.

So this may be another case of one thing depending on another with a lot of variables.

Best,
Sushi