Why the potassium drop with the methyl Bs?

[alex3619]

Hi Freddd, yes I was considering that too. It is possible that many of our fluctuating symptoms tie into this. The way to test it is to have blood samples taken at home during crashes due to weakness, or diarrhea or constipation. With a little more work this could justify a methylation/gut/brain crossover thread. I wonder if there is any published evidence of this kind of thing? Bye, Alex

PS Here is a link to a discussion of low total body potassium: http://sacfs.asn.au/medical/adelaide_uni_research_3.htm

Fifty-one subjects with CFS only (29) or myalgia/fatigue (22) were studied with a TBK a full biochemical profile and the results were analysed for these 2 groups. The CFS group with fatigue only, showed a significant reduction in the level of TBK and in one half of these the reduction in TBK was greater than 10% of the normal estimated for age weight and sex. The serum potassium levels were normal in all subjects.

Of course under the working hypothesis they might not see transient loss of potassium in blood.

It has been said elsewhere that the potassium issue may be linked to patients with CFS but who do not have fibro.

 

[adreno]

PS During the two days I was on methylation (I am not now as I am on medication that makes potassium problematic, it can cause hyperkalemia, I am thinking about this) my severe circadian dysfynction seemed to autocorrect. This was in just two days. I am thinking I might go on methylation at a lower dose soon, and maybe intermittently. I am considering a range of options including switching blood pressure medications. I am on an ACE inhibitor, which raises serium potassium, but I don't have to be and if I can correct the potassium issue I might not need a bp med at all. I have both high bp and NMH (a form of OI).

I have POTS, and my pulse usually hovers around 120bpm when standing. Yesterday I measured my standing pulse at 73bpm, after taking 500mg potassium. Incredible.

 

[heapsreal]

Could the potassium problem be a hormonal cause from dysfunction of anti-diuretic hormone etc. A common symptom in me/cfs is running to the toilet to powder the nose frequently, this increased urination can increase potassium secretion, so maybe plays a role in this too. There are some meds used for nocturia(night time nose powdering) that may be helpful and help maintain potassium levels.

 

[alex3619]

Hi heapsreal, maybe for some. I run to the bathroom much less often than most. I think its more likely to be lost through the gut in my case. However, we are all guessing still. We still can't prove its about potassium, thats a working hypothesis.

The whole body potassium theory also does not hold up for fibro apparently, so I wonder if this also accounts for methylation non-responders? Has anyone done a methylation survey for responders/non responders to find out if they have fibro?

Bye, Alex

 

[maddietod]

I'm a methylation protocol non-responder who doesn't have fibro (Rich's, 9 months). But it's looking like I have problems with folic/folinic acid, so I'm tip-toeing into a metafolin-based protocol.

I don't get any symptoms that indicate low potassium - nothing that's different from my normal fluctuations. Is there an amount of potassium I can take every day as a safety? All I'm doing for methylation ATM is cofactors, 2 x Douglas Labs B-Complex, 1 x Solgar metafolin, and 2 drops hydroxy B12 (I had it on hand, am curious to see what it does).

Thanks,

Madie

 

[Rockt]

Freddd, having trouble with knowing whether or not low potassium is an issue.

From your post on another thread:

"Detox" from folic acid equals an induced paradoxical folate deficiency.

"Detox" from folinic acid equals an induced paradoxical folate deficiency.

"Detox" from vegetable food source folate or "green drinks", equals an induced paradoxical folate deficiency.

"Detox" from glutathione equals an induced folate deficiency, and induced mb12 and induced adb12 deficiencies.

"Detox" from NAC equals an induced folate deficiency, and induced mb12 and induced adb12 deficiencies.

"Detox" from whey equals an induced folate deficiency, and induced mb12 and induced adb12 deficiencies.

"Detox" from mb12, adb12, Metafolin equals induced potassium deficiency

"Detox" from adding l-carnitine equals induced potassium deficiency

"Detox" from adding/increasing vitamin D up to 5000iu equals induced potassium deficiency

"Detox" from adding SAM-e equals induced potassium deficiency

"Detox" from adding/increasing zinc equals induced potassium deficiency


After 9-10 months, I've just recently been able to add Bcom (1 x Jarrow B-right/day - has folic acid, but had a full bottle on hand - will order Douglas Labs) and zinc (1 x 25mg/day). Didn't seem to have trouble with L-carnitine fumerate (2/day), but I've had to work up slowly to 1200mcg metafolin. Not taking Sam-e yet. I also eat a fair amount of green vegetables (brocoli, kale, chard). From what you've stated above, I should try eliminating folic acid, but should really think about potassium deficiency? I currently take 300-400mg potassium/day. I've tried as high as 1000mg/day - didn't make a difference, except for one strange symptom - my face got a crystal-like (salty?) coating??

What is a safe level of potassium to try? I'm a skinny 130 lbs., but trying hard to gain back some weight.

 

[adreno]

Freddd, when you say you take 1800mg of potassium, I assume that's on top of the recommended daily level of 4700mg? So, would you say you get about 6500mg per day?

People readily exceed recommend levels of sodium by grams, so I assume getting a few extra grams of potassium over the recommended level won't lead anyone into hyperkalemia, as long as their kidneys are functioning? Thanks.

 

[Freddd]

Freddd, having trouble with knowing whether or not low potassium is an issue.

From your post on another thread:

"Detox" from folic acid equals an induced paradoxical folate deficiency.

"Detox" from folinic acid equals an induced paradoxical folate deficiency.

"Detox" from vegetable food source folate or "green drinks", equals an induced paradoxical folate deficiency.

"Detox" from glutathione equals an induced folate deficiency, and induced mb12 and induced adb12 deficiencies.

"Detox" from NAC equals an induced folate deficiency, and induced mb12 and induced adb12 deficiencies.

"Detox" from whey equals an induced folate deficiency, and induced mb12 and induced adb12 deficiencies.

"Detox" from mb12, adb12, Metafolin equals induced potassium deficiency

"Detox" from adding l-carnitine equals induced potassium deficiency

"Detox" from adding/increasing vitamin D up to 5000iu equals induced potassium deficiency

"Detox" from adding SAM-e equals induced potassium deficiency

"Detox" from adding/increasing zinc equals induced potassium deficiency


After 9-10 months, I've just recently been able to add Bcom (1 x Jarrow B-right/day - has folic acid, but had a full bottle on hand - will order Douglas Labs) and zinc (1 x 25mg/day). Didn't seem to have trouble with L-carnitine fumerate (2/day), but I've had to work up slowly to 1200mcg metafolin. Not taking Sam-e yet. I also eat a fair amount of green vegetables (brocoli, kale, chard). From what you've stated above, I should try eliminating folic acid, but should really think about potassium deficiency? I currently take 300-400mg potassium/day. I've tried as high as 1000mg/day - didn't make a difference, except for one strange symptom - my face got a crystal-like (salty?) coating??

What is a safe level of potassium to try? I'm a skinny 130 lbs., but trying hard to gain back some weight.

Hi Rockt,

Not everybody has a low enough value of potassium such that they have a problem when they start healing. It also depends about +how much starrts happening all at once. For those taking mb12/adb12/Metafolin, when certain symprtoms happen, often on the third day after "startup" that is low potassium. I got startup for each of the fpollowing followed by droppin potassium, mb12, adb12, SAM-e, Zinc, L-carnitine fumarate, Metafolin (over and over as I go into paradoxical folate deficiency and then come out. I started each item separately as I looked for the "next" thing to add, aiming for startup and given in the order I started things becasue I didn't know about everything at the beginning. Other people reported the same things and added Vit D to that as suddenly kicking everything off. I only take enough potassium to stop the low potassium symptoms from happening, not aiming for any numbers. Before realizing the connection I was taking 200mg/day on general principles. Now I take 1200-1800mg day depending upon symptoms and their alleviation. It was adding the adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate that allowed my muscles to heal and grow. The need for potassium is provoked by getting healing going.

 

[richvank]

How is this test different from a test I can get from my doctor? I have had hyponatremia this is nothing to fool around with. It's life threatening. Are these test reliable and are they validated? Does this lab have credible credentials? Somehow a lab over the internet, and is the only lab in the country who does this test, raises alarm bells. Am I being paranoid?

Thanks.

Barb. C. :>)

Hi, Barb. C.

This is from the website of Intracellular Diagnostics:

IntraCellular Diagnostics, Inc. is: CLIA approved; California and Oregon State Licensed; an Independent Clinical laboratory and a Specialty Reference Laboratory; Eligible for Medicare and Private Insurance Coverage. We accept assignment.

Note that all labs in the U.S. must be approved by CLIA, which is a federal requirement. They are subject to inspection and testing. This lab has been in operation for quite a few years. They started in Foster City, CA, and later moved to Medford, OR. As far as I know, they do a good job.

The technique they use was developed by Dr. Burton Silver, and I think he has a patent on it. That may be why his lab is the only one that runs this test. I think it was primarily developed for testing magnesium, because the conventional tests (especially serum, but also to some extent red blood cells) do not reflect the magnesium levels in the tissue cells very well. There is also a magnesium loading test, but in ME/CFS I doubt that it gives an accurate picture for magnesium, either, because the problem is that the cells do not retain magnesium, even though there may be plenty in the blood.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[justy]

Sorry if this an overly basic question. Ive ben follwoing all these discussions with interest( as always) but dont really have the brain power to understand much of it. I have looked up potassium supplements on the net and they all caution against taking potassium without a doctors advice and say that it is dangerous if you take to much. I am very cautious about medicines and supplements as i have so many bad reactions to things. What is a safe level to take and why do all the websites come with such strong warnings about Potassium?
I have realised that i am taking an asthma bronchodilator which is known to reduce potassium and an inhaled steroid which also does as well as licorice from my herbalist which i now know also lowers P. I have been injecting methyl b12 for a few months now, but my wired feeling keep coming back, depsite lowering the dose.
What are the main symptoms of P deficiency?
Thanks Justy.

 

[richvank]

Alex, Freddd and the group,

I'd like to suggest one more thing in connection with the low intracellular potassium issue in ME/CFS.

It's known that when muscles are used, they export potassium to the extracellular fluid. Since PWMEs are low in intracellular potassium to start with (as shown by the Burnet et al., study, and thanks, Freddd for posting that. I remember when it came out, but had forgotten it) perhaps one of the things that contributes to post-exertional problems is that the muscles go even lower in potassium content during exercise.

By the way, the Burnet et al. study used whole-body gamma ray counting to evaluate the total potassium in the body. This is a very good technique, because all potassium contains a known, small percentage of naturally occurring potassium-40, which is radioactive and emits a nice, energetic gamma ray that can be readily detected outside the body. During my earlier working life I had my whole body counted several times to see if there were other gamma-emitters in it as well, because I worked with radioactive material. The potassium-40 peak was always present. This radionuclide has a very long half-life, of the order of a billion years, and has been present since the earth's formation. It's the main natural radioactivity in the human body. Since by far most of the potassium in the body is inside the cells, this technique gives a very direct way of evaluating total intracellular potassium.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Freddd]

Sorry if this an overly basic question. Ive ben follwoing all these discussions with interest( as always) but dont really have the brain power to understand much of it. I have looked up potassium supplements on the net and they all caution against taking potassium without a doctors advice and say that it is dangerous if you take to much. I am very cautious about medicines and supplements as i have so many bad reactions to things. What is a safe level to take and why do all the websites come with such strong warnings about Potassium?
I have realised that i am taking an asthma bronchodilator which is known to reduce potassium and an inhaled steroid which also does as well as licorice from my herbalist which i now know also lowers P. I have been injecting methyl b12 for a few months now, but my wired feeling keep coming back, depsite lowering the dose.
What are the main symptoms of P deficiency?
Thanks Justy.

Hi Justy,

Are you taking adb12? If you were to take that and get thaty so that you are saturated at the mitochondria level, there would be no further change in ATP produciton and the "wired" feeling might go away. There are two casues I have seen in that, the neurology turning on and the ATP ramoing up. I know of no other way to turn those back on without turning them on and going throufg a period of feeling wired until your body adjusts to that higher level. That does happen, shortly after you saturate the system and stop having a new effect each time you take a dose. Increasing the dose will stop that where as lowering the dose won't work and just keeps it going indefinitely. Also TMG can help take the edge off.

 

[Freddd]

Sorry if this an overly basic question. Ive ben follwoing all these discussions with interest( as always) but dont really have the brain power to understand much of it. I have looked up potassium supplements on the net and they all caution against taking potassium without a doctors advice and say that it is dangerous if you take to much. I am very cautious about medicines and supplements as i have so many bad reactions to things. What is a safe level to take and why do all the websites come with such strong warnings about Potassium?
I have realised that i am taking an asthma bronchodilator which is known to reduce potassium and an inhaled steroid which also does as well as licorice from my herbalist which i now know also lowers P. I have been injecting methyl b12 for a few months now, but my wired feeling keep coming back, depsite lowering the dose.
What are the main symptoms of P deficiency?
Thanks Justy.

Hi Justy,

Are you taking adb12? If you were to take that and get that so that you are saturated at the mitochondria level, there would be no further change in ATP produciton and the "wired" feeling might go away. There are two casues I have seen in that, the neurology turning on and the ATP ramping up. I know of no other way to turn those back on without turning them on and going through a period of feeling wired until your body adjusts to that higher level. That does happen, shortly after you saturate the system and stop having a new effect each time you take a dose. Increasing the dose will stop that where as lowering the dose won't work and just keeps it going indefinitely. Also TMG can help take the edge off.

The "wired" feeling is a signpost to healing. Seek to maximize that and it will end about the time it starts to feel good. Use that as an aiming point. Decide to accept that so you can get rid of the rest of things. I used to take asthma meds but that healed so now I haven't had any in 8 years.

As to potassium, test, especially since you take things that lower the need. If you got healing going well, the potassium will likely drop also.

Bad reactions to so many things is another symptom of the mb12/metafolin deficiencies.

 

[Freddd]

I'm a methylation protocol non-responder who doesn't have fibro (Rich's, 9 months). But it's looking like I have problems with folic/folinic acid, so I'm tip-toeing into a metafolin-based protocol.

I don't get any symptoms that indicate low potassium - nothing that's different from my normal fluctuations. Is there an amount of potassium I can take every day as a safety? All I'm doing for methylation ATM is cofactors, 2 x Douglas Labs B-Complex, 1 x Solgar metafolin, and 2 drops hydroxy B12 (I had it on hand, am curious to see what it does).

Thanks,

Madie

Hi Madie,

The folic acid problem may be what is making you a non-responder. When you become a responder, the potassium level will likely drop.

 

[maddietod]

Sorry I left out part of the story, trying not to clutter up this thread. About 2 weeks ago I stopped taking/eating all man-made and fruit-vegetable-legume folic/folinic acid. I stopped the SMP that day, but had been taking B-Complex for a few weeks and I continued that.

Overnight my symptoms resolved about 80%.

I took 1 x 99mg potassium the 3rd morning because of cramping (neck) during the night; I did this again that night when I got tight again. It helped.


On day 8 I added 1 x Solgar metafolin, and on day 9 I challenged with 1 serving of boiled, drained kale 1/2 hour after the Solgar, and soon had my symptoms back (less severely). Later I had a racing heart, nausea, and a headache. I didn't take potassium.

I woke up feeling new-normal (80% better) the next morning, and added in all the basic co-factors, but no B12s.

I'm now running some other experiments, but my question here is: with the small amount of mb12 in the B-Complex, plus the metafolin, should I take some amount of potassium daily in the absence of obvious symptoms.....just because? I still have some issues with stiffness - neck muscles and shoulder joints.

Thanks,

Madie

 

[Freddd]

Sorry I left out part of the story, trying not to clutter up this thread. About 2 weeks ago I stopped taking/eating all man-made and fruit-vegetable-legume folic/folinic acid. I stopped the SMP that day, but had been taking B-Complex for a few weeks and I continued that.

Overnight my symptoms resolved about 80%.

I took 1 x 99mg potassium the 3rd morning because of cramping (neck) during the night; I did this again that night when I got tight again. It helped.


On day 8 I added 1 x Solgar metafolin, and on day 9 I challenged with 1 serving of boiled, drained kale 1/2 hour after the Solgar, and soon had my symptoms back (less severely). Later I had a racing heart, nausea, and a headache. I didn't take potassium.

I woke up feeling new-normal (80% better) the next morning, and added in all the basic co-factors, but no B12s.

I'm now running some other experiments, but my question here is: with the small amount of mb12 in the B-Complex, plus the metafolin, should I take some amount of potassium daily in the absence of obvious symptoms.....just because? I still have some issues with stiffness - neck muscles and shoulder joints.

Thanks,

Madie

Hi Madie,

I don't know. Watch your symptoms. That kind of stiffness is common in mb12/adb12/metafolin/l-carnitine fumarate deficiencies.

 

[gu3vara]

Sorry I left out part of the story, trying not to clutter up this thread. About 2 weeks ago I stopped taking/eating all man-made and fruit-vegetable-legume folic/folinic acid.

Hi madie (or freddd),

can you help me figure out what food I should excluded to significantly reduce folinic / folic consumption? Is it only legumes and green veggies like lettuce and spinach? Your results sound promising!

 

[maddietod]

I leave this to Freddd, because I have no idea; I'm making this up as I go along. I eat meat, fish, dairy, eggs, almonds, cashews, and occasional rice crackers. I'm experimenting now with small amounts of fruits and veggies, and the worst reaction has been to leafy greens (kale).

 

[adreno]

It's fairly easy to look up the folate contents of foods on the Internet.

 

[maddietod]

Yes, but there are interesting questions about whether the source matters. Eg, walnuts are very high in folates.