Endogenous RNA viruses and Methylation

[markmc20001]

Hi Redo,

I looked at the ingrediants listed for it and it contains glutathione. When one take glutathione, where directly or as precursors, it has the same effects. One of most immediate effects that is purely chemistry is that glutathione combines with various forms of b12 in the body and makes them into glutathionylcobalamin and almost instantly flushing them from the body. When I took it as a trial my urine tuyrned red, Normally it is slightkly tinted by the amount of mb12/adb12 I take. WIthin hours it turned as red as if I were taking 180mg/day instead of 30mg. That as followed by an incredibly severe folate deficiency that worse day by day causing what is most commonly called "glutathione detox reaction" or "NAC detox reaction". NAC is a precursor of gltutathione. After a couple of weeks b12 defieincy symptoms were building up to. Every one of the other 9 people who did the trail, all successful on the active b12 protocol, had a similar response.


What's the active B12 protocol?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics

Just a little feed back.

Glutathione, and NAC seem to throw off my methylation as you describe Freddd. First place I feel in is in my gums. I get raw gums and skin peels off.

However, NAC and maybe glutathione work when I was taking long term doxycycline. I know for certain that NAC was working well with doxycycline.

Once the methylation cycle kicks in, and I know what that feels like from before. All ones hormones straighten out. My testosterone came up to more normal levels. What a difference that makes!

I know androgens might stimulate HGRV's, so it makes sense to me that a retrovirus could be responsible for illness. The concept being ones body keeps testosterone low to prevent the HGRV's from running wild and causing cancer. BUt I'm going on intuition though...

 

[Adster]

Just a little feed back.

Glutathione, and NAC seem to throw off my methylation as you describe Freddd. First place I feel in is in my gums. I get raw gums and skin peels off.

/QUOTE]

NAC has the effect of thinning out mucus, and is used for this in Cystic Fibrosis. Mucomyst is the prescription product. This is probably why it causes rawness and sensitivity in mucus membranes, such as the gums.

 

[markmc20001]

Just a little feed back.

Glutathione, and NAC seem to throw off my methylation as you describe Freddd. First place I feel in is in my gums. I get raw gums and skin peels off.

/QUOTE]

NAC has the effect of thinning out mucus, and is used for this in Cystic Fibrosis. Mucomyst is the prescription product. This is probably why it causes rawness and sensitivity in mucus membranes, such as the gums.

Thanks. something I did not articulate well. The NAC helped raise glutathione when on antibiotics, but does not raise glutathione and caused gum problems without antibiotics. For whatever it is worth.

 

[redo]

More fascinating info on methylations role in the activity of endogenous retroviruses.

Regulation of human endogenous retrovirus-K expression in melanomas by CpG methylation.

Retrovirus Induced Immunosuppression

The overall prognosis of patients with advanced melanoma is poor due to the lack of effective treatment. A key factor for successful therapy is an early detection of disease. Therefore, reliably detection methods and meaningful tumor markers are required. Expression of the human endogenous retrovirus (HERV)-K(HML-2) was found elevated in melanomas and it was shown that HERV-K supports the in vitro transition of melanoma cells from adherent to a more malignant, nonadherent phenotype. Furthermore, the detection of HERV-K-specific antibodies in melanoma patients was found to correlate with reduced survival. However, the reason for HERV-K expression in melanomas still remains unclear and its use as a tumor marker needs further investigation. Therefore, the tumor-specific transcriptional regulation of HERV-K expression in melanoma was studied in detail. Human melanoma cell lines were investigated for HERV-K expression using real-time PCR. Five cell lines showed very high levels of HERV-K mRNA as a result of increased promoter activity. This promoter activity was directly silenced by DNA methylation in reporter gene experiments. Higher levels of long terminal repeat (LTR) methylation in cells not expressing HERV-K compared with cells expressing HERV-K were found using methylation-sensitive PCR and bisulfite sequencing. Treatment of cell lines with the demethylating agent 5-aza-2'-deoxycytidine resulted in increased levels of HERV-K expression in cells previously not expressing HERV-K and it was shown that this increase is not the result of transcription factor activation. These results demonstrate that increased HERV-K expression in melanomas may be due to increased promoter activity and demethylation of the 5'LTR.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20095041/

 

[redo]

I am being speculative here, so please do weigh in others whom have a different opinion. If indeed ME has a gammaretrovirus at it's core, like HERV-W's proposed role in MS, than I think the dots are connected this way (very short summary):

1) A healthy person gets ME often after a triggering event (EBV, giardia, the flu etc).
2) What happens is that an endogenous retrovirus gets active, and stays active, autoimmunity/autoinflammation happens.
3) As a result of the body doing it's very best to keep the (now active) endogenous retrovirus under control, the body runs short on the storage of what's needed for the methylation process.
4) Adding supplements can help this process a great deal.

I think that once the endogenous virus has established itself, it's not easy to stop. But, I think methylation support than has a positive effect, especially when given simultaneously with other supportive measures, such as avoiding stress, and so forth. Hopefully I'll get to see for myself soon what it can do soon. I placed an order a while ago, but since that hasn't gone through, I placed a new one recently, so I guess I'll get the supplements in the mail in a week or so.

If others have other opinions on how methylation can be related to endogenous retroviruses, than let me know. The list above is not carved in stone, but rather assumptions of how it could be, after reading a little on the subject.

 

[redo]

An important reason why I suspect endogenous retroviruses to be involved in our disease, is the experiences I made myself on a ARV course. It stirred around my symptoms, and new ones popped out of nowhere.

To begin with I felt little from the ARV treatment, but after about a month, I got worse and worse. It's not in any way normal side effects from either of the drugs, so it has to be something else. My illness has been utterly stable for years and years before this happened. This is among other things some of the horrible effects the treatment had:
I have never had joint pains beforehand, but now I got RA like pains in the joints on my right arm (especially in the finger joints), plus I got RA like joint pain in the left knee. This has fixed itself since I had the relapse.
Out of nowhere, I got some symptoms which where pretty much OCD like. Pretty scary to get that from the ARV course. This has fixed itself since I had the relapse.
I got ADD like concentration problems. That's still there, now over a year after the ARVs.
I got the strangest personality shift. I can't explain this in any other way than epigenetic changes. Epigenetic changes as in turning on and off endogenous retroviruses. The personality shift, happened swiftly and lasted for weeks during the worst of the relapse. I am pretty much a blueprint of my father, but it changed my behavior in a way which is really how it is on my mothers side of the family. The changes where so clear, so obvious, that it's not something to take for a mistake.

All of this happened during the relapse with the ARVs. Randalbond in the other thread shares much of the characteristics of my worsening, despite her being on different ARVs than I was. Adding all of that together, the only plausible explanation I can find is that the ARVs whipped up the endogenous retrovirus which is making us ill, and by doing so, the body got even more problems with handling methylation, since methylation is one of the most important ways the immune system can dampen endogenous retroviruses. When there where even more methylation problems, other ERVs could also flare up, and thereby other symptoms such as RA, OCD and so forth would become problematic for a while.

If indeed endogeonus retroviruses are at the core of ME, than that would also offer a plausible explanation as to why mothers whom have ME often get children with e.g. autism. Changes in epigenetics can also be transgenerational. If a person has an active ERV at birth, it seems very likely that it could make for a different illness expression, such as autism. I personally know at least one PWME whom has a son with autism, and I think to unravel the mysteries behind ME, the answer to the whole thing must also offer an explanation as to why the children of PWME often suffer from such conditions.

I am writing this pretty much as a way of sorting my thoughts, just to point that out.

 

[redo]

This study has some fascinating info on B cells methylation and disease in SLE. It could very well be that similar mechanisms are in play in ME. Makes sense with how the B cell depleting agent rituximab works:

"This study shows engagement of the BCR silence hypomethylated endogenous retrovirus and that this mechanism is impaired in SLE B cells. This derepression could in turn promote the expression of endogenous retrovirus and then promote B cell autoreactivity."

http://ard.bmj.com/content/69/Suppl_2/A34.2.full

 

[redo]

SUPPLEMENTS

1. General Vitamin Neurological Health Formula [2]: Start with tablet and increase dosage as tolerated to 2 tablets daily
2. Hydroxy B12 Mega Drops [3]: 2 drops under the tongue daily
3. MethylMate B [4]: 3 drops under the tongue daily
4. Folinic acid [5]: capsule daily
5. Phosphatidyl Serine Complex [6]: 1 softgel capsule daily (or lecithin, see below)

All these supplements can be obtained from http://www.holisticheal.com.
The fourth supplement comes in capsules that contain 800 mcg. It will be necessary to open the capsules, dump the powder onto a flat surface, and separate it into quarters using a knife to obtain the daily dose. The powder can be taken orally with water, with or without food.

Hi Rich,

I just got the supplements in the mail today. I wonder something; the folinic acid pills where rather hard and small, do you think it would be equally good to either take one daily, or take one every four days, as to separating them into four parts and taking one part daily?

 

[richvank]

Hi Rich,

I think you place far too much weight on my possible genetic processing of cyanocbl and hydroxcbl. Glutathione causes the immediate flushing form the body of massive amounts of b12 and that has noting to do with genetics. Maybe it leaves 1% of the b12 in the body and that is more useless to me than to others, but the immenzse flushing of b12 is simple chemistry. That can be deonstrated by anybody who wants to do so very easily.

Hi, Freddd.

Maybe what happens in your case is that the glutathione reacts with the B12 forms in the blood, before they have diffused into the cells. Perhaps the glutathionylcobalamin does not diffuse into the cells as readily as methyl- and adenosylcobalamin, and that may be why more is lost in the urine (I'm not sure about this, but I think it is a possibility). In addition, if a person has a polymorphism in the CblC complex of the type that you appear to have, even if the glutathionylcobalamin were able to diffuse into the cells, the cells would not be able to convert it to the two coenzyme forms of B12.

As I may have mentioned in the past, multiple chemical sensitivity patients of Dr. Grace Ziem have mixed hydroxocobalamin and glutathione together (which rapidly forms glutathionylcobalamin) and have nebulized this and derived benefit from it. So these people must be able to utilize it. That suggests to me that genetics are indeed involved in your case.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[Dreambirdie]

As I may have mentioned in the past, multiple chemical sensitivity patients of Dr. Grace Ziem have mixed hydroxocobalamin and glutathione together (which rapidly forms glutathionylcobalamin) and have nebulized this and derived benefit from it. So these people must be able to utilize it.

Best regards, Rich

Hey Rich--

I'm glad to have found you here. I hope you can answer a question for me.

I experimented with taking a higher dose of the HB12 on Sunday (about 2000 mcg--2 drops instead of 1 drop), along with the metafolin (3--800 mcg doses) instead of the methylmate. It triggered a very strong detox reaction, which I was able to clear with several doses of the TD-glutathione over a couple days time. Yesterday, I decided to take my usual doses of the HB12 along with the methylmate. I had another almost as strong detox reaction, which I am still processing. I have not had such a strong response to those supps before, and wonder if it's due to the detox triggered back on Sunday opening the pandora's box of my toxins... ?

So at this point my question is, when methylation pathways open up and begin clearing, is it better to take really tiny doses of the supps every day, or to take a regular dose once or twice a week? I am trying to figure the least painful way of navigating this protocol.

Thanks in advance

PS AND YES, I agree that the glutathione is a saving grace for me with my MCS.

 

[richvank]

Hi, DB.

If B12 and folate are able to get into cells, they can have a long residence time in the body, so yes, I do think that your earlier larger dosages could have raised the levels in the cells so that your body will respond more strongly to smaller additional dosages.

My view is that the dosages should be limited to producing responses that the person can tolerate, so smaller dosages more often would get my vote.

Thanks for sharing your experience with glutathione and MCS.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[topaz]

Hi Redo,

I looked at the ingrediants listed for it and it contains glutathione. When one take glutathione, where directly or as precursors, it has the same effects. One of most immediate effects that is purely chemistry is that glutathione combines with various forms of b12 in the body and makes them into glutathionylcobalamin and almost instantly flushing them from the body. When I took it as a trial my urine tuyrned red, Normally it is slightkly tinted by the amount of mb12/adb12 I take. WIthin hours it turned as red as if I were taking 180mg/day instead of 30mg. That as followed by an incredibly severe folate deficiency that worse day by day causing what is most commonly called "glutathione detox reaction" or "NAC detox reaction". NAC is a precursor of gltutathione. After a couple of weeks b12 defieincy symptoms were building up to. Every one of the other 9 people who did the trail, all successful on the active b12 protocol, had a similar response.


What's the active B12 protocol?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics

What are other precursors to avoid other than NAC ofcourse?

Thank you

 

[redo]

Hi Rich,

I just got the supplements in the mail today. I wonder something; the folinic acid pills where rather hard and small, do you think it would be equally good to either take one daily, or take one every four days, as to separating them into four parts and taking one part daily?

I hope you don't find it rude that I asked Richvank.

If the answer is that the optimal way would be to not take more than a forth, than I'm going to invest in a capsule machine. Empty the powder of all of them, and fill them into capsules 1/4 of the original size. There are many have an alright cost.

 

[richvank]

Hi, redo.

This seems to be an individual thing. Some people have reported that taking a whole tablet at one time can give them an intolerable reaction, and they have to take only a "crumb." Others have reported gobbling the whole tablets, and not feeling anything. So I guess one has to experiment for oneself. I inherited the one-quarter tablet dosage from Amy Yasko's autism treatment program. She has found that dosage to be suitable both for adults and children, so I used that as a starting point. There really hasn't been enough clinical testing of variants of the protocols to reach good conclusions about what would be best for most people, and then there are variations in response from one person to another. I wish I could give you a better answer, but I think that's the status of our understanding at this point.

Rich

 

[redo]

Thanks a lot, that is a good answer :Retro smile: