• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Dr. Terry Wahls - MS recovery plan

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
On Terry Wahls Facebook page today (the bold is mine--a good reminder):

"As people change their diets (and their family's) it is a big challenge. Go at the pace that you can manage. It is important to have high quality protein. Shoot for 9 cups vegetables/ berries - but if you cannot do not stress. Simply be sure you are not eating white flour, sugar, high fructose corn syrup (hopefully you are going gluten and dairy free)."
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
I have been having some strange symptoms after my last breakfasts of greens, mushrooms and protein. For the last 3-4 days I have gotten horrendously thirsty and hungry and my energy has taken a dive. The thirst is REALLY BAD, which tells me my body is depserate to flush something out.

What could this be? Does anyone have any ideas. Please let me know if you do. Thanks.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Hi dream,

Sounds like you need to eliminate these and try them one at a time again.
I've never had this kind of reaction that I know of. I get rashes, swelling, etc.

I had a long post but lost it .. Tc .. X

Ps. Anyone trying to go from the sad (standard american diet) to this one will probably have a rough time. Withdrawals from gluten, casein, sugars, etc can be hard, esp for us. It may be better to go gfcf then paleo to avoid this ..
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
HI X--

I have been eating an all organic diet for 35 years, w/o any sugar or processed foods EVER. I have been eating mostly Paleo for about 4-5 years. SO I didn't think the Wahls diet was a big change. However, I have NEVER eaten this many greens and mushrooms in my life! I am wondering if eating kale 3X/day for many days in a row, and then again, is not that great of an idea for me right now...?

I am going to eat more other vegies for a few days and keep the greens and mushrooms ltd.
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Hi, Dreambirdie; I posted above about my rise in TSH--still investigating, but don't feel hypothyroid--feel in fact pretty good--but came to this after having done quite a bit of it for quite a while, and have not gone whole hog in quite your fashion. I still have breakfast starting with an orange or 1/2 grapefruit (that counts) followed by a mix of oatmeal/quinoa/hemp/ground flax seed, on which I scatter mixed berries (that counts) and pomegranate juice. And feel fine until mid morning, when I make a big glass of juice from kale, etc etc. Then lunch may be a soup with mushrooms, tomatoes, onions, nutritious yeast, kale, peppers, etc.--that all counts--and then mid afternoon either another glass of juice or a "roughie" (smoothie made on a food processor) and then supper a large plate of mixed veg (sweet potato, chard, onion, etc etc. plus some tempeh or whatever.

I think it is possible to integrate a lot of this stuff into meals that do contain some good carbs, and I wonder if your body would not like some more immediately accessible carbs with which to start the day? I think mine does, and I am doing fine so far. By no means cured, but friends as well as my head tell me things are improving. So like others above I would suggest slowing down and backing off a bit--this is not a race!
Best, Chris
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
Yeah Chris, maybe I will sprout kale leaves from my ears if I don't back off a bit real soon...lol!

I don't do well with cereal, and certainly not fruit, for breakfast, but maybe soup would work. I can't eat eggs every day, so maybe some meat (in the soup) instead on alternating days. Other meals are easier. I know when I've eaten "the right thing" because I feel satisfied and a bit energized. Lately this is not happening on the Wahls diet, so obviously some changes are needed.

Thanks for your input.
 

SaraM

Senior Member
Messages
526
HI X--

I have been eating an all organic diet for 35 years, w/o any sugar or processed foods EVER. I have been eating mostly Paleo for about 4-5 years. SO I didn't think the Wahls diet was a big change. However, I have NEVER eaten this many greens and mushrooms in my life! I am wondering if eating kale 3X/day for many days in a row, and then again, is not that great of an idea for me right now...?

I am going to eat more other vegies for a few days and keep the greens and mushrooms ltd.

Could it be folic acid in the veggies like kale which Fred has mentioned repeatedly?
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
Could it be folic acid in the veggies like kale which Fred has mentioned repeatedly?

Good question. Please tell me more, Sara.

I have usually not had any issues with vegies, but maybe it's the quantity I have attempted to eat that has upset my folic acid balance.
 

SaraM

Senior Member
Messages
526
Good question. Please tell me more, Sara.

I have usually not had any issues with vegies, but maybe it's the quantity I have attempted to eat that has upset my folic acid balance.

Dream,
Perhaps Fred can give you more info on the subject , but I think he said in one of his threads that folic acid and folinic acid in veggies such as kale can have negative side effects, and we better limit consumption of veggies high in folate. Sorry, that is the only thing I know.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Hi dream,

I'm not sure what eating the same veggies would do. I eat about 15 - 20 different fruits and veggies a day. Waaaay more than I ever ate before. I'd gotten into eating too much meat and not enough fruits and veggies .
I've been lucky that my hfs is keeping their shelves stocked.

Also, I really need to eat meat at every meal too. Just about 2 - 4 oz at a time tho. I eat steak during the day and chicken at night.

I can't handle grains at all. My pre breakfast is a cup of amande yogurt with blueberries and a handful of raw nuts.
That gets my glucose level up enough so I can make breakfast. Breakfast is steak and salad.
Smoothies are made with veggies, fruits, avocados, flax and spirulina.

I've been making boiled eggs and flax muffins for quick snacks.

Tc .. X
 

aprilk1869

Senior Member
Messages
294
Location
Scotland, UK
Good question. Please tell me more, Sara.

I have usually not had any issues with vegies, but maybe it's the quantity I have attempted to eat that has upset my folic acid balance.

Here are some quote from Fred on the matter

Only some unknown poercentage of folks with folic acid problems have folinic acid problems. SO it is possible to have no problem woth folinic acid or veggies but lots of problems with folic. If a person can't tolerate folinic, then it appears that they also can't tolerate folic but not the other way around.

Also, in my case, 800mg of folinic PLUS veggie folate was a terrible thing. Veggie folate by itself was an on agan off again thing becasue of the meat folate and methylfoalte. That probably is a total quantity thing.

And NONE of the folate related problems were anywhere as severe as that from glutathione.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...oxical-folate-deficiency-is-it-the-same-thing

About 20% of people can't convert folic acid to active form. About 30% can convert it to a very limited extent. The other 50% can convert it to about 800mcg. So if a person takes more than they can convert the unconverted folate builds up in the body and for various reasons blocks the methylb12 casue a folate deficiency even though blood tests say you have lots of folate, hence paradoxical folate deficiency. The lite3rature says that large amounts can build up in anybody and be "toxic". I'm calling that pardoxical folate deficiency 1, or PFD1 for short.

Some smaller percentage of people can't convert folinic acid, and that includes vegetable source food folate, to methylfolate. It blocks the methylfolate. I'm calling that paradoxical folate deficiency 2, or PFD2 for short.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?15865-Folate-Issues-amp-Methylation/page4

Folic acid is only found in supplements and fortified foods whereas folinic acid acid is found in supplements and fuit, vegetables, grains etc. Rich says that there might be a problem with the MTHFS gene which means people can't utilize the folinic acid. Instead is builds up in the system and blocks the folate receptors. This means that methylfolate (found in some supplements and meat) can't do its job.

Fred has had to a lot of experimenting to see how many vegetables he can eat and the timing of the Metafolin supplements.

For him, folate deficiency starts with angular chelitis and then IBS. Other people might experience other problems.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Is anyone else having problems with preparing these veggies ? The act of washing and cutting
these are making me feel like I'm going to have a seizure. Especially in the mornings. I have
petite mals regularly but it seems anything that requires fine motor skills is making me
feel jittery. Writing and doing my nails have been a problem since I first got sick in 1990 but this is the first time I've spent this much time chopping.

Ideas ? Does this get better ? I'm open to doing drugs .. Lol .. Thanks .. X
 

Chris

Senior Member
Messages
845
Location
Victoria, BC
Hi, Xchocoholic (how did you manage this? I can control but not abolish the dependence)--I now have an office chair on wheels in my tiny kitchen so that I can sit while unloading the frig and washing and cutting those veg--it helps me a bit.

And I have found a terrific discussion of just my situation with regard to thyroid (and rising LDL cholesterol) in a podcast by Chris Masterjohn, which I strongly recommend to anyone who runs into thyroid trouble while following Wahls--as is likely to happen, as much of the recommended diet is goitrogenic:
http://chriskresser.com/chris-masterjohn-on-cholesterol-and-heart-disease-part-3

I am still feeling good and slowly better! And will be seeking a good iodine supplement since kelp seems less than totally reliable.
Best, Chris
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Hi chris

Good to hear thst you're doing well. I'm not eating as many of the goitrogenic foods as dr w recommends. I have hashimoto's and I just didn't get energy from these like I do the leafy greens.

On ldl, mine is good due to more healthy fats and less unhealthy fats. Could be the paleo diet helped this too tho ...

I sit to chop veggies too. Cfs cooking 101, eh ? It's the fine motor skills I'm struggling with. I googled
Fm skills and saw it happens in the same part if the brain as ataxia. I had ataxia fir 16 1/2years so I understand the connection. I'm just struggling with not feeling well while chopping. I don't feel well
when I write either tho. I wasn't sure if I needed to back off ...

Tc . X (today but maybe not tomorrow) .. Bwaa ha ha ..

Ps. Please post info on iodine if you find one you like. I caved and bought wakame. Hoping I don't start glowing in the dark ..
 
Messages
73
Location
Belgium
Hi anniekim - yes, she does discuss supplements but it's quite lengthy and complex and not something I could summarise. Also, it's not clear to me how much of the supplements stuff would be MS-specific. I'm ignoring the supplements (not necessarily a good decision but I wanted to try the diet alone, first).

Here are my full notes on her book (which I didn't intend to fully summarise for myself - I've been a bit selective in not including supplements and maybe some other stuff):

Gradually increase number of servings per day to reach the target.

Daily:
3 cups dark leafy greens (e.g. spinach, lettuce, kale) or cruciferae (cabbage, broccoli); Wahls eats 6 cups of leafy greens/day.
3 cups brightly coloured veg or fruits (e.g. beets, red cabbage, carrots, berries, oranges), one each of:
o blue/purple
o red
o yellow/orange
3 cups your choice of veg (include onions/garlic, mushrooms)
Omega 3 source:
o cold-water fish
o grass-fed meat
o eggs from chickens fed flax or grass
o flax or hemp seeds
Mushrooms, nutritional yeast (Wahls takes 1-2 tbsp/day) and nuts or seeds
Minerals source: seaweed, dried kelp, brewers yeast. Seaweed has iodine, esp. kelp. Wahls rotates different algae (Klamath blue green, spirulina and chlorella) helps detox heavy metals, daily in smoothies. Takes 1tsp algae + 1-2 tsp kelp.
Cup of bone broth once a day or before each meal (magnesium, collagen, glucosamine etc. for bone health).
Clay footbath (detox). NB: clay removes medication from the bloodstream so dont take it if need meds.

Weekly:
organ meats (for B vitamins)

Also:
Turmeric (curcumin) in cooking, teas and smoothies helps produce GABA (& hence glutathione)
Matcha green tea, several cups/day, neuroprotective, improves concentration, mood, binds toxins
Potent antioxidants: green tea, cocoa, ginger, cloves, cinnamon, cardamom


White potatoes, corn, rice or grains dont count in the nine cups of vegetables and fruit. Can have them, but only if have eaten the nine cups.

May get bloating when start on Omega-3-rich foods at first; can use probiotic for several weeks.

Wahls uses flax oil instead of olive oil in salads because its higher in Omega 3.

Does she say anything on how the vegetables should be prepared? cooked, raw, steamed,...
For some nutrients it makes a huge difference whether the food is cooked or not.

This is mainly important for foods containing isothiocyanates. They are formed by enzymes (myrosinase) out of their precursors called glucosinolates.
If you boil broccoli for exemple, the myrosinase enzymes will be destroyed and the glucosinolates won't be converted, so you will loose a great portion of it's nutritional/antioxdant properties.
One of the main isothiocyanates is sulforaphane. Search more information on google or pubmed.

Cooking Broccoli Destroys 90+ Percent of Anti-Cancer Compound Sulforaphane http://www.naturalnews.com/025893_broccoli_sulforaphane_research.html
Boost anti-cancer properties of broccoli by spicing it up http://www.naturalnews.com/033948_broccoli_anti-cancer.html

More information on cruciferous vegetables http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/isothio/
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Hi Legolas - no, she didn't - she did mention that cooking destroys some enzymes but makes minerals more available, I think, but that was it.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
I feel better if I eat veggies raw. Cooked veggies don't give me the energy boost raw does. And I'm not wasting time and energy cooking or cleaning pots and pans. : )

Raw veggies may be too diffucult to digest at first so lightly steaming
these may help you adjust. Digestive enzymes helped me for awhile too but I don't seem to need these now.

H pylori stopped my digestion last september too. Treatment resolved
this ..

Fwiw ...For me, feeling hyper isn't the same as feeling energized. That urge to run up a mountain after eating a cookie wasn't good energy. ; ) Since giving up toxins like gluten, hfcs,
caffeine, etc ... it's easier for me to tell the difference.

FWIW ... I wouldn't expect changes overnight. It takes years to undo the damage caused by toxins and poor diet. It actaully took me about 6 - 8 months to feel the full benefits of caffeine elimination.

For now, I'm eating about 7 cups leafy greens (red and green kale, spinach, bok choy, watercress, parsley (1 cup) cilantro),

1/2 - 1 cup cruciferous (brocolli and red cabbage only) brussel sprouts make me tired ...

1/4 cup red, orange and yellow peppers ... too many make me gassy ...

1/4 cup onions (leeks + red onions)

and 2 garlic cloves,

1 avocado,

and

4 fruits a day. I've been able to increase my fruits
on this diet so that's a plus. Kow.. My hyperinsulinemia was stopping me before.

I'm at 1/4 to 1/2 lb of meat and 2 - 4 boiled egg yolks ...

Eating this way has really simplified this plan for me ... It takes about an hour to clean all the veggies that I'll need for the next 3 - 4 days. Then an hour each day to chop them all up. I also use my chopped veggies in my smoothies so that's ready to go too ...

Tc .. X
 

Purple

Bundle of purpliness
Messages
489
With broccoli, we have the florets usually heat prepared (stir fried or boiled for a short time) and the stalks juiced (with a slow speed juicer). We either boil the left over pulp from juicing for a vegetable stock/broth with other left over veggies (for minerals) or use it as part of a face mask or mix with other things to dehydrate for crispy snacks.

Broccoli sprouts sound very healthy, does anyone have experience with making them?