The difference between MS and ME

[topaz]

Hi Annesse

So it turns out that we are on the same page. It sounds like we share very similar or possibly the same diet protocol. My diet is pretty much an organic traditional/paleo diet one. I also agree about the sauerkraut (and other probiiotics) and mentioned this in posts in the Gut/KDM thread last year. I even have Wild Fermentation but have not got around to making any due to the brain fog.!! I agree about pasture raised protein and only eat grass fed beef and pasture raised other protein.

Im not sure I agree about supplementation though as any diet, even a traditional or paleo one, is limited by the quality of soil which no longer contains the nutrients and minerals that it did during our ancestors time - even organic pasture. We did evolve to require these nutrients so we need to get them from somewhere (if unavailable via diet) or the engine wont run.


So restoring the gut is key, but back to B12. I still have a key question which my absence of knowledge of biochemistry precludes me from understanding and maybe someone (Rich et al) can answer:

Q: Is it protease that that enables the B12 to pass the blood brain barrier (BBB)? Or is there another process that is required for this?

For me, I have ample serum B12 but it is my functional B12 that is insufficient and I believe I need to get the B12 through the BBB.

There are also polymorphisms which would impede conversion and/or availability which cannot be completely rectified by diet alone, imo. If you have 677 polymorphism there is nothing a diet can do to enable the process required to convert the folate to occur. It is broken. I do believe diet/gut issues are key primary areas that need to be addressed. [A change in diet would likely result in epigenetic changes that could go some way to triggering changes to the genetic code. [I believe it is diet and our environment that has resulted in unfavourable epigenetic changes which have resulted in conditions such as CFS, Autism, many autoimmune etc - but that is another story in itself. And can these changes, once made, be reversed ie are the gene marker on/off switches that responsive to more than one change? I have seen a twin study that was very illuminating.]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I look forward to reading more in your book.

 

[Annesse]

Hi topaz,
Here is a study on B12 that states, "In vivo studies demonstrate that the pancreatic enzymes and the ionic environment in the upper gastrointestinal tract are essential determining factors for transport and absorption of cobalamin in man."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC371670/
I wasn't sure if you saw this thread on being able to trace all of the symptoms and scientific findings of CFS back to these missing enzymes. I have made some additional connections since I posted this. The cytochrome P450 enzyme system and also the heme synthetic pathway would be disrupted if you were unable to digest proteins. This would explain the sun and chemical sensitivity found in CFS and MS.

The first component in the heme pathway is Succinyl-CoA. Vitamin B12 serves as a cofactor for methylmalonyl-CoA mutase which converts methylmalonyl-CoA to Succinyl-CoA. A lack of B12 would result in a failure of this pathway. A failure in the heme biosynthetic pathway would also result in a failure of the cytochrome P450 enzyme detoxification system. The active site of cytochrome P450 contains a heme iron center, and therefore, cytochrome P450 enzymes are hemoproteins. Cytochrome P450 is a powerful enzyme detoxification system that is our bodies first line of defense against chemicals and environmental pollutants. For instance, cytochrome P450 is the reason doctors tell you not to drink grapefruit juice when taking certain medications. Grapefruits contain a flavinol molecule that inhibits cytochrome P450 enzymes. This would slow down the detoxification of the drug and might cause it to have a stronger effect than intended.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/show...-(pancreatic-enzymes)-and-the-symptoms-of-CFS

 

[Annesse]

Another condition common to both CFS and MS is Interstitial Cysitis. Researchers in diabetes and rosacea have found "abnormal peptides" that they believe is what triggered the immune response in these diseases. An abnormal peptide has also been found in Interstitial Cystitis (IC). It is called Antiproliferative Factor. It is a GLYOPEPTIDE. Here is the link. http://www.pnas.org/content/101/32/11803.abstract

In the previous study I posted on the lack of amino acids in CFS, (Hematologic and Urinary Excretion Anomalies in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) it was found that CFS patients lack asparagine. Here is a quote from the study. "The reduction in the urinary output of asparagine in CFS patients noted in this study may be consistent with IMPAIRED PROTEIN SYNTHESIS, since asparagine is an important amino acid in protein structures, required for forming GLYCOPEPTIDES."

Just as in CFS and MS, tumor necrosis factor and elevated homocysteine also play central roles in IC. Here is some information on the central role that mast cells play in IC. Mast cells release tumor necrosis factor. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17462477

I posted information previously that showed the amount of tumor necrosis factor found in the cerebrospinal fluid of MS patients mirrored the severity of the disease. Also, I have previously posted studies to show tumor necrosis factor is dysregulated in CFS.

Here is a study that shows increased apoptosis in the endothelial cells of the bladder.
http://www.mendeley.com/research/in...cells-bladder-interstitial-cystitis-patients/

Here is the link to homocysteine.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11447214

I have previously posted information on the endothelial cell damage being done in CFS and also on the elevated homocysteine found in both MS and CFS.

This next study states in the conclusion, "Based on clinical presentations, epidemiology, pathology, and laboratory findings and treatment response, there is an important correlation among interstitial cystitis and rheumatic, autoimmune and chronic inflammatory diseases." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15119315

This next study on fibromyalgia and IC concludes, "Although central mechanisms have been suspected to contribute to the pathogenesis of fibromyalgia for some time, we speculate that these same types of mechanisms may be operative in IC."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9201654

 

[aprilk1869]

I've been making my own sauerkraut and eating it with each meal and have been reading up on probiotics in general.

Annesse, I came across http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com written by Dr. Art Ayers who has an interest in bacteria and inflammatory diseases, I think he might be someone worth contacting regarding your research. His blog is very interesting but a bit over my head.

 

[baccarat]

Hi Annesse,

So I've recently started eating raw organic sauerkraut. I buy it from a local food shop. It tastes really good.
However the shop owner told me that I should never have more than a little bit every day after I mentioned that I sometimes eat half a jar in one go.
Is it so? How much would you advise eating every day?
I'm also trying to implement most of the other dietary changes you talk about.

Also what do you think of Rejuvelac, the fermented drink popularised by Ann Whittemore? I tried it once and it gave me a bad tammy so I didn't touch it since then. I wondered whether that could be a healthy addition.

 

[Googsta]

Hi Lee Ann
My Radiologist & GP were convinced I had MS a few years ago. White Matter lesions were found in three MRI's. But my Neurologist, after meeting with several of his colleagues said it isn't MS.
This is an excellent article written by a visiting Neurologist at Harvard outlining the differenaces between M.E & MS (wow, a Neuro who acknowledges M.E!).
http://www.cfids.org/archives/2000rr/2000-rr4-article03.asp

 

[adreno]

Hi Lee Ann
My Radiologist & GP were convinced I had MS a few years ago. White Matter lesions were found in three MRI's. But my Neurologist, after meeting with several of his colleagues said it isn't MS.
This is an excellent article written by a visiting Neurologist at Harvard outlining the differenaces between M.E & MS (wow, a Neuro who acknowledges M.E!).
http://www.cfids.org/archives/2000rr/2000-rr4-article03.asp

Interesting, and as the article explains, even though there is some overlap, there are also clear differences between the two disorders.

 

[Annesse]

Hi Aprilk1869 and baccarat,
I'm glad I checked in here. I almost missed your posts. Aprilk, so glad to hear you are eating sauerkraut. I will check out the website you posted. Thank you very much.

Baccarat, I would eat as much of the sauerkraut as you can. If you feel good after eating a half jar, then I would continue to eat it. My granddaughter (she is just 3) ate an entire gallon of pickles in one week when she came to visit recently. She drank all the juice too. I wouldn't do the rejuvelac. I would stick with the traditional fermented foods. Beet Kvass would be good. It is very easy to make.

 

[Jenny]

Hi Aprilk1869 and baccarat,
I would eat as much of the sauerkraut as you can. If you feel good after eating a half jar, then I would continue to eat it.

I'm eating sauerkraut now. I can eat half a jar, and not feel any different, good or bad. Annesse, could you give your opinion please: might eating a lot every day cause problems long-term, even if one might feel OK after eating each portion?

Jenny

 

[Annesse]

Hi Jenny,

Fermented vegetables are filled with vital enzymes and beneficial bacteria. We have eaten them for thousands of years with no ill effects. Our health is dependent on them to a degree most of us cannot fathom. They are not the entire answer however. Many things can destroy enzymes and beneficial flora. Also, if you have an overgrowth of pathogenic yeast and bacteria, these will need to be addressed. An awarness of what will trigger an immune response is also necessary. Denatured and damaged proteins are found in many commonly consumed foods considered healthy. New research shows the immune system is targeting these damaged and denatured proteins. Of course, the lack of amino acids, zinc, iron and B12 needs to be addressed as well. This is done through the consumption of grassfed proteins along with fermented foods like sauerkraut. So, no, I would not be concerned that sauerkraut will harm you in any way. Of course, as we know even water in common sense excess can lead to trouble. Just use common sense and consume it as you would any other extremely healthy food.

 

[aprilk1869]

Based on Dog Person's recent posts regarding people's issues with iron and lead, I came across this info which I though was relevant to this discussion. Annesse is against the use of vit D supplements.

Sunlight Increases Lead Absorption

A great majority of lead poisoning cases occur in summer. Animal experiments have demonstrated that vitamin D and the rays of the summer sun enhance the absorption of lead from the intestine.

Smith et al. (1978) have shown that vitamin D stimulated lead absorption in vitamin D-deprived animals. The possibility also exists that summer heat leads to dehydration and acidosis in young children. Vitamin D also increases the mobilization of lead from its storage depots in the bones and so precipitates the acute manifestations of the disease.

Summer is also a time of growth spurts, when the development of new bone calls for a fast turnover of calcium. Lead rides alongside the calcium into the blood stream, to attack the nervous system and the brain itself.

http://www.arltma.com/LeadToxDoc.htm

I wonder if low vit D levels is the body's way of preventing the absorption of lead?

 

[Annesse]

Hi Aprilk~That is really interesting information. Thank you for posting it.

Both CFS and MS patients also have low endorphin levels. For example, the study entitled, "Decreased immunoreactive beta-endorphin in mononcuclear leucocytes from patients with chronic fatigue syndrome patients," found that endorphin levels were "significantly lower" in chronic fatigue syndrome pateints than in healthy controls. Endorphins are the body's natural painkillers. Endorphins are morphine-like substances that block pain signals in the spinal cord and brain stem. They do this by binding to the same receptor sites that pain signals use.

One of the drugs used to treat MS is the opiate antagonist low dose naltrexone. (LDN) Here is some information on LDN, MS and the finding of low endorphins in MS.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/45105
Low doses of naltrexone are thought to work by temporarily blocking the body's ability to release endorphins by binding to the same receptor sites. The body compensates by producing more endorphins than it typically would once the drug wears off.

The body makes two classes of endorphins from amino acids found in high protein foods. One form of endorphin contains leucine, and the other contains methionine. The other amino acid found in both types of endorphins are phenylalanine and tyrosine. We have shown that MS patients and CFS patients lack these specific amino acids.

 

[mellster]

One thing I am curious about related to this thread is the fact that I have repeatedly read that MS and other common chornic autoimmune (and even some non-autoimmune) diseases are believed by conventional meidicne to be TH1-dominant conditions, but we always hear and read that CFS/ME is a TH2-dominant condition. Who is wrong or is the TH1/Th2 model a bit too simplistic anyways now that Th17 has been discovered?

 

[TrixieStix]

And at Post 141: Annesse, it is an interesting theory you have. Do you have any thoughts of enhancing the activity of DNase 1? I believe many CFS sufferers (including me) have already tried supplementing pancreatic enzymes without success.


Annesse

Are you able to comment on the above two posts please?

I apologise if you have and I missed it as I have just digested 17 pages at once.

Also at post #90 you say 'If you lack optimum acidity from inadequate digestion of protein, you will not have enough ionized calcium. In either case, you are a candidate for arthritis."


Q: What is "optimum acidity"?

Thank you

Any idea what my blood test saying I am "DNAse sensitive" means?

 

[wastwater]

I visit the MS st barts blog from time to time as they seem to discus similar things,vit D,EBV and HERV http://multiple-sclerosis-research.blogspot.com/
Have a look at there charcot 2 project