Dan, I never dreamed you would take it badly. It is only that that is the medical science - copper is required for lysl oxidase for cross linking of collagen. I stated what I did because you (and I) can say it hurts our stomach etc etc but we can't argue with nature -- it is needed for cross-linking of collagen. I recognise quite clearly that I am hyperthyroid (borderline) and because the medical establishment has not come up with a good measure of copper status (invalidating most of the studies) they believe it is rare to be copper deficient, but I do not think it is rare. I think if you were about to step out in front of a truck and a friend did not say, "Hey, look out!" then that would be no kind of a friend.
As it happens the symptoms I experience, which you asked, are that I feel like a "fragile bag of protoplasim" - I beat off one health problem only to fall into another. I have learned many things from a lifetime battle and no one helped me even the tiniest bit so I try to reach out my hand to others. Sometimes people even thank me.
I have to go - I am at the laundrymat and my clothes are done.
Take care,
Rydra
P.S. It does not matter how much collagen you make -- if it is not cross-linked due to copper deficiency, you will have weak skin. It is only copper that does that, nothing else. W/o enough copper it is like building a brick house w/o staggering the bricks. This is medical science that's all. And I would be horribly upset for that to happen to you, no matter how crusty you are. To me you are the precocious kid with white glasses. The kid inside.
P.P.S. I lost 20 pounds w/o trying in no time at all after my hysterectomy but I got low copper diagnosed and I took 5mg doses of copper, used liquid copper on my skin, discontinued zinc, as well as got onto bioidentical hormone replacement to bring it up. I eat lots of chocolate (a high copper food) and I drank lychee tea and ate lychee. I stopped losing weight. I stopped having crepey skin anywhere. I function at a 7 on the scale. I cannot tolerate chemicals or drugs, and right now I am constantly exposed to flea control products so I am coming apart at the seams. But inbetween allergy seasons and chemicals I am fairly fine. Since my genes are much worse than yours I would think you would want to compare notes and really listen to what I have to say. I came to this site wanting to get more stability in my daily life so that I could learn to be immune to chemicals and the shit that takes me down (but from which I bounce right back up) only to find the people here so much sicker than me. You treat me like a gadfly (not just you) - nothing I say could possibly be relevant -- since I am not a 2 on the scale or something and never have been for more than a few days. But look at my genes. I have read many hundreds of studies on copper. I educated myself on the topic to the nth degree.
A friend of mine who recovered himself from both RA and low copper wrote a book with a chapter on copper. Here is from that book:
http://members.tripod.com/~charles_W/copper.html. Regarding Vitamin C, before you raise your dose look at page 3, wherein Charles cites: Vitamin C causes ruptures of the aorta in copper deficient animals [Owen]. (This scared me since I take 2g C/day. Maybe careful with the C).
If you poke around in there a bit, you'll find he has a chapter on what he has found on ME/CFS. (He did not mount a study on it, just wrote up what he stumbled over).
Here is a website to find foods high in copper and low in whatever (such as zinc since zinc impedes copper absorption). You can pick whatever works for you:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/tools/nutrient-search.
Also you should read the paper at tracelements.com on copper because it tells you all the nutrients that have been shown at one time or another to impede copper absorption. (Things like molybdenum).
I don't know anything about my CBS gene except that it is supposed to make your homocysteine low and mine was high (but is now perfect on Fredd's protocol). I decided to ignore the CBS gene rather than freak out about it since my homocysteine was high rather than low (indicating the CBS did not have that much effect). If your homocysteine is also high, you might focus on that to good effect. If it is low then I don't know how to fix that (except that I would try Fredd's protocol anyway just to be sure that didn't fix it because the trick will be to speed up the mfolate+mB12 path and the choline/TMG/BHMT path so that they can beat out the CBS gene at least some of the time. (Perhaps taking extra of these supplements may help). I think if you can get your homocysteine to 6.3 you will be making enough SAMe to be a 7 also.
Now I really am done. I have said all I am going to say about copper. I think a lot of people here have copper deficiency and don't know it because copper is an acute phase reactant and is miobilized by the body to kill infections, or also in the case of OTC drugs, inflammation, hormonal state,etc.
Dr. Wilson, the adrenal fatigue doctor, thinks that everyone with candida is copper deficient and a lot of people here have that problem. Most older Americans have bone loss despite taking every bone-building supplement on the market (because high dose copper is not in them). Bone loss can be reversed if these nutrients are taken in this ration cal:zn:cu:mn 1g:15mg:5mg:2.5mg. [Lowe]. Most older Americans suffer from arthritis and studies show copper helps with that.
I am not the only one whose copper status is helped by DHEA (adrenal hormone). (I have seen no evidence that copper is absorbed without mettallothionein so am personally doubtful it could build up in that case. I'd be interested to see any evidence otherwise). See note 10495 in BetterMedicine for a person who found candida magically disappeared after starting bioidntical hormones:
Mantis,
I remember reading something about copper deficiency sometime ago.
I also suffer from candida and once I started the bioidentical hormone replacement, the candida magically disappeared. While all of my other symptoms have reappeared, that one has not..knocking on wood!
When my bipolar/hormonal symptoms first appeared and I was hospitalized, I had a huge candida breakout on my legs and stomach and the condition has been chronic since! At that time, the doctors COULD NOT figure out what it was.....
Apologize for all of the posts, but I cannot get it together enough to respond in one message!
Hi ohfaithful,
I found an excellent website here which I believe can explain all this. It supports what I said, but adds more detail. Link is:
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/candida.htm
Here is a quote from it:
Copper is the bodys natural anti-candida agent. Farmers often spray copper sulfate on fruits and vegetables to kill yeast and molds. Water departments may add copper compounds to drinking water for the same reason. Copper may be added to swimming pools and hot tubs to control yeast. Copper favors aerobic metabolism which disables yeast.
Everyone with candida has a copper imbalance. Most often, copper is present but not available to the body. This is due to deficiency of ceruloplasmin, a copper binding protein. Adrenal hormones are required to produce ceruloplasmin. Underactive, exhausted adrenal glands or sluggish liver activity cause a decrease in ceruloplasmin production. As a result, copper is not properly bound and is less available to the body. Until the copper-adrenal-liver condition is corrected, candida is difficult to control.
So, basically, copper builds in the tissues, but it cannot be utilized I believe unless the body is producing enough ceruloplasmin which is the job of the adrenals...
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Please also note that behind the scenes, Fredd also takes Pregnenolone and DHEA. I consider it an unwritten part of his protocol.
That's all - I bound it all up into one note that you can just ignore -- feel free.