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    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

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The ME (ICC) vs CFS (Fukuda) Diagnosis Poll

I Meet the Criteria For

  • CFS according to the Fukuda Definition (1994) but not the ICC for ME

    Votes: 2 2.4%
  • ME according to the ICC for ME (2011) but not the Fukuda def for CFS

    Votes: 7 8.3%
  • I meet the criteria for both the ICC and the Fukuda definition

    Votes: 74 88.1%
  • I don't meet either definition

    Votes: 1 1.2%

  • Total voters
    84

justy

Donate Advocate Demonstrate
Messages
5,524
Location
U.K
Xchoc - i havent been diagnosed with Dysautonomia and apart from the odd day where i have (relatively) more enrgy i am also fatigued or as i prefer to call it exhausted all the time.
Having said that im not likely to be tested for it here,i do wonder as i have low BP and get dizzy a lot especially when i stand up and when i feel really bad ;aying down with my head slightly elevated (not flat) is the best way to feel better, i also have terrible temp fluctuations -mostly cold but when i get hot i cant cool down and start sweating like mad.
Ho Hum the joys of M.E!

Justy.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Justy,

Fun, indeed .. Lol ..

You can do your own poor man.s tilt table test with a bp cuff. Have something to write with handy.

Just lay down flat for an hour and remain calm. Then take your bp and heart rate. I do this with my arm extended outright and my hand resting on something so that my arm is relaxed. I try to simulate how they do it at the doctors office.

Next stand up straight and don't move except to take your bp. Take it at 1 min, 2 min, 3 min and then 10 minutes. A word of caution on the 10 minute test .. I was close to passing out and it took me an hour at least to recover fully. Of course if you feel faint stop and ask someone to help you.

A 20 pt drop in your bp 3 minutes means you have orthostatic intolerance. And a 30 pt increase in heart rate after 10 minutes indicates tachycardia / pots.

Tc .. X
 

floydguy

Senior Member
Messages
650
Hi floydguy,

Can you describe your dysautonomia and what your diagnosis is based on ? Thanks .. X

- Rapid heart rate
- Persistent body temp well below 97
- Paradoxical breathing
- Swings in blood pressure (not related to standing though)
- Occasional fainting episodes

Dxed by both Anthony Komaroff and Nancy Klimas.
 

mezombie

Senior Member
Messages
324
Location
East Coast city, USA
Keep in mind that the ME ICC authors will be putting out Physician's Guidelines which will include more detailed diagnosis information, helpful tests, and a symptom severity scale. The ME ICC will also be discussed at the upcoming IACFS/ME conference in Ottawa. I expect these events will address some of the ambiguities.
 

mellster

Marco
Messages
805
Location
San Francisco
I am not sure whether narrowing down will help the cause. With such a complex condition and multiple subsets the perceived symptoms obviously vary widely. While it's possible that some might find out that they don't have CFS/ME after all, judging by my time here in the forum this is rather a rare occurrence. I think doctors should simply treat and investigate patients that report symptoms instead of questioning they psyche. The new guidelines are great and necessary, but they should be viewed as an aiding educational guide rather than an inclusion/exclusion tool.
 

mezombie

Senior Member
Messages
324
Location
East Coast city, USA
There is a dire need for research on well-defined patient cohorts and the ME ICC selects such cohorts. Research to date on, say, the same pathogen has been difficult to compare because of the overbroad case definitions in use to date.
 

floydguy

Senior Member
Messages
650
I am not sure whether narrowing down will help the cause. With such a complex condition and multiple subsets the perceived symptoms obviously vary widely. While it's possible that some might find out that they don't have CFS/ME after all, judging by my time here in the forum this is rather a rare occurrence. I think doctors should simply treat and investigate patients that report symptoms instead of questioning they psyche. The new guidelines are great and necessary, but they should be viewed as an aiding educational guide rather than an inclusion/exclusion tool.

The problem though is that how can you make any research progress if you're studying people who don't have the same disease.? This shouldn't be a case of no patient left behind. At some point, somebody is going to have suck it up and make the case for some kind of bio-marker as the basis of research studies.
 

mellster

Marco
Messages
805
Location
San Francisco
Yes, but since there are likely multiple causes/triggers, they need to treat each cohort according to their needs. Unless, of course, the one-retrovirus theory pans out in the end. I think for research well defined cohorts are a necessity, but this condition causes so many dysfunctions that treatment-wise every patients should be treated according to their needs and to what they respond best (might take multiple trial and error stages).
 

floydguy

Senior Member
Messages
650
If there are indeed cohorts they should be defined and researched as such. Yes, treatment should be based on specific symptoms and not based on any broad category that may exist for any disease. I am not sure it matters whether are multiple causes or triggers. If there are then there must be a common underlying root cause of illness. Otherwise we're talking about different diseases.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
- Rapid heart rate
- Persistent body temp well below 97
- Paradoxical breathing
- Swings in blood pressure (not related to standing though)
- Occasional fainting episodes

Dxed by both Anthony Komaroff and Nancy Klimas.

Thanks floydguy,

Blood pressure dropping upon standing is why I think I.m so tired. In fact, if I just lay down until my bp normalizes and my heart stops pounding, I feel healthy. It.s when I get up things go downhill fast. I.vd been like this since 10/2007. I.m pretty sure this is what myhill calls healthy at rest. Of course I only feel healthy at rest if I've eaten recently and slept well.

Btw. Your type of dysautonomia / bp regulation problem / not assocaiated with standing, has been discussed at the dinet board but since I couldn.t relate, I don.t remember what was said.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
I appear to be a unique case in that exercise doesn't affect me very much - doesn't exacerbate symptoms. However, most of the testing - including the exercise bike VO2 Max Test - reveal the same abnormalities as othershave. My sleep has improved so I am not all that tired but I am constant physical agony - I suspect from immune dysfunction. My worst problem is a very dysfunctional immune system but I also have the neurological issues. So I don't seem to meet Fukuda or ICC.

Hi again,

I just read this. It's interesting to me that you showed similar results on the bike test and yet excercise doesn.t exacerbate your symptoms. Did you feel ok on the bike test ? Can you run on a treadmill ?

When I try either of these, my muscles go into spam unless I go very very very slowly or stop and let my muscles recover. All this time I thought my reaction to excercise was related to my bike test results. I don.t think I lasted 30 seconds on the bike test.

At the risk of being virtually hung by my listmates, lol, I wanted to tell you that my pain was from eating tomatoes or bacon. I love tomato sauce but it kills me everytime ...

Tc ... X
 

floydguy

Senior Member
Messages
650
Hi again,

I just read this. It's interesting to me that you showed similar results on the bike test and yet excercise doesn.t exacerbate your symptoms. Did you feel ok on the bike test ? Can you run on a treadmill ?

When I try either of these, my muscles go into spam unless I go very very very slowly or stop and let my muscles recover. All this time I thought my reaction to excercise was related to my bike test results. I don.t think I lasted 30 seconds on the bike test.

At the risk of being virtually hung by my listmates, lol, I wanted to tell you that my pain was from eating tomatoes or bacon. I love tomato sauce but it kills me everytime ...

Tc ... X

There is a nuance I think. And that is that I think my threshold is higher. I seem to be okay if I am exercising at a constant rate - think of cycling or an exercise bike. But once I start straining I start to fall apart and have to stop or slow down. Once I am back to a consistent exertion than I seem to be okay again. I don't usually have problems later in the day or the next day.
 

ahimsa

ahimsa_pdx on twitter
Messages
1,921
Diagnosis of diffferent types of Orthostatic Intolerance

You can do your own poor man's tilt table test with a bp cuff. Have something to write with handy.

Just lay down flat for an hour and remain calm. Then take your bp and heart rate. I do this with my arm extended outright and my hand resting on something so that my arm is relaxed. I try to simulate how they do it at the doctors office.

Next stand up straight and don't move except to take your bp. Take it at 1 min, 2 min, 3 min and then 10 minutes. A word of caution on the 10 minute test .. I was close to passing out and it took me an hour at least to recover fully. Of course if you feel faint stop and ask someone to help you.

A 20 pt drop in your bp 3 minutes means you have orthostatic intolerance. And a 30 pt increase in heart rate after 10 minutes indicates tachycardia / pots.

This type of home testing will find some types of Orthostatic Intolerance but it will also miss some types. Plus, as xchocoholic says, be very careful that you don't pass out! You could hurt yourself if you fainted and fell over. I wouldn't recommend doing this test at home without someone with you. (maybe I'm way too cautious but thought I'd mention it)

My own type of Orthostatic Intolerance (OI) is Neurally Mediated Hypotension (NMH) and it would not have shown up on a home test like this. I took the tilt table test twice (why twice? the second one was medically unnecessary--exact wording from my doctor--but it was required as evidence for my ERISA long term disability claim. I think they were expecting it to be normal the second time and they were quite surprised that it was so obviously abnormal again. In other words, their strategy of forcing me to take the test completely backfired).

Anyway, on both tests my blood pressure dropped quite suddenly (to some value that could not be measured by the BP cuff) and I passed out, just from the standing (no isoproteronol required). It was a clearly abnormal result that was obvious even to my cardiologist who is not a specialist in autonomic dysfunction.

The point is that it took between 20-30 minutes before my BP dropped so suddenly. 10 minutes of standing would not have been long enough for me. Also, as the test went on I was quite uncomfortable, getting a lot of symptoms (esp. nausea) and I was fidgeting and moving my feet without being aware of it. Obviously, my subconscious was aware that moving around would help to keep my BP from dropping. The technicians running the test had to come over and tell me to stop moving. As soon as I made myself stop moving around then very quickly after that my BP dropped. Someone trying to do this test at home might think they were being still enough but might be moving around or fidgeting more than they realize.

For an expert's description (as opposed to my rambling anecdote! :D) here's an extract from the Johns Hopkins document on Orthostatic Intolerance (Full document here - PDF file):

How are NMH and POTS diagnosed?

NMH and POTS cannot be detected with routine, resting blood pressure or heart rate
screening. The diagnoses can be made with a prolonged standing test or a tilt table test. Although
a 10-minute test is all that is needed to diagnose POTS, this is too brief for diagnosing NMH,
which usually requires at least a 45-minute period of upright posture. Many hospitals and
academic centers throughout the world perform tilt table testing. It allows careful measurement
of the heart rate and blood pressure responses to the head-up position, usually at a 70-degree
angle, in an almost standing position. The usual reason for performing a tilt table test in the past
had been for the evaluation of recurrent fainting. Many people with NMH develop adaptations to
keep from fainting, such as crossing their legs, fidgeting, or sitting or lying down when they get
lightheaded or tired. However, during the tilt table test they must remain still, and they cannot
call upon these natural defenses. As a result, fainting can occur for the first time during the tilt
table test. Increased fatigue and malaise often occur for a few days after the test is performed,
although our experience has suggested that these symptoms can be minimized if the individual is
treated with intravenous saline solutions immediately after completion of the tilt test.

I'm not at all trying to say that everyone out there needs to get a tilt table test. I'm just saying that this home testing may not reveal anything for a certain subset of OI patients.

I hope this was not too much of a tangent from the original post!
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Hi floydguy,

Thanks for explaining that. It makes sense that you just have a higher threashold. Stairs or lifting anything makes me totally winded. And I don.t know why but sometimes, very rarely, i'm fine. This symptom was really bad when I had low iron.

Hi ahimsa,

Thanks for explaining nmh so well. I never knew how that worked.

Fwiw. Maybe this topic isn.t so off since we.re further identifying our symptoms. There.s a lot of info on me/cfs but not a lot of details.

Tc .. X
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
I'm getting brain dead but I think this explains our differences. I only copied in the first paragraph. This article is definitely important for us though ... tc ... x

http://www.cfids.org/archives/2003rr/2003-rr2-article01.asp

Fall 2003

Research Q&A
Cardiac Output Linked to Severe CFS Cases
By Mark Giuliucci

Article: Abnormal Impedance Cardiography Predicts Symptom Severity in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. The American Journal of the Medical Sciences. 2003; 326(2):55-60.

Synopsis: While the cause of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) remains unknown, researchers have noted circulatory irregularities in many patients. These include autonomic nervous system dysfunction, often manifested as orthostatic intolerance; neuroendocrine abnormalities (see story on p. 4); reduced plasma volume; and low red blood cell mass. In combination, some researchers believe, these factors could create deficiencies in blood flow to organs and muscles with resultant symptoms, such as post-exertional fatigue, that are hallmarks of CFS.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
My problems are much more in the immune system. For starters, I have an NKC activity of 2.

I was just thinking that this explains the exercise / heart / dysautonomia relationship in me/cfs.

I was impressed that perckerman thinks pem is from our dysfunctional hearts. I.ve been thinking that pem was the result of insufficient blood supply but he said it better than me. I have a lbb that was originally diagnosed as a mitral valve prolapse in 1992. My cardiologist doesn.t think it.s responsible for my oi but maybe he.s wrong. :eek:

I'll have to look up nkcells. My docs haven.t discussed this with me.

Tc .. X
 

November Girl

Senior Member
Messages
328
Location
Texas
My GP had me lean against a wall to do this. She didn't want me to fall down! We only checked the BP after a few minutes - not the heart rate. I'm tempted to try another one at home.

Justy,

You can do your own poor man.s tilt table test with a bp cuff. Have something to write with handy.

Just lay down flat for an hour and remain calm. Then take your bp and heart rate. I do this with my arm extended outright and my hand resting on something so that my arm is relaxed. I try to simulate how they do it at the doctors office.

Next stand up straight and don't move except to take your bp. Take it at 1 min, 2 min, 3 min and then 10 minutes. A word of caution on the 10 minute test .. I was close to passing out and it took me an hour at least to recover fully. Of course if you feel faint stop and ask someone to help you.

A 20 pt drop in your bp 3 minutes means you have orthostatic intolerance. And a 30 pt increase in heart rate after 10 minutes indicates tachycardia / pots.

Tc .. X