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Time for the Big Talk. How's the CAA doing?

jackie

Senior Member
Messages
591
well I read the cme doctor education material...several times. (thanks orla, for making it easy for me)

Under clinical pearls": "Avoid overexertion and UNDEREXERTION, both of which have adverse medical consequences." (my bold...sorry if this has already been posted)

I think my doctors might like this as it's what they keep telling me (warning me), over and over - they call it de-conditioning. My days of FEARING the "consequences" of underexertion have long passed. It's my life.
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
By the way, while we're speaking of exercise, I really recommend getting a voice activation system. I have Dragon's Naturally and, honestly, I've had a ton of difficulty getting it to work but its now working now it just whips this stuff out. I am literally simply speaking into the microphone the sentences are flying out. I would never have been able to write all this down - it would have been exhausting! :cool: When It works it makes it so much easier to communicate- then you can use your energy for other things.


Glad that's working for you now Cort. In my case, typing is way easier for me than talking out loud.
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
Looking at the names and other professionals I people I consider on the energy management issue e.g. Dr. Charles Shepherd, Dr. Ellen Goudsmit, etc, I think we should panels drawing up management guidelines should ideally be made up of patients incl. professionals who are patients!
People who live with patients are often good as well e.g. Dr. Weir.

I agree!

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
The main point to learn from this is that if you just have Northern American doctors coming up with guidelines, you may come up with problematic (in my mind) guidelines.
UK doctors don't all recommend exercise.

Dr. Martin Lerner only recommends exercise when you get to 7 on his scale http://www.cfsviraltreatment.com/energy_index_score/index.html (which is high functioning):


Aside: This is a full-time job as this is point 6:


I think Dr. Campbell's program is mainly a pacing program.

Prof. Jason recommends energy envelope and pacing methods and pacing methods came out better than the exercise intervention in his 2007 trial.

I'm sure there is not agreement on all these issues; I'm just pointing out that the CME is very mainstream in its approach....that its not different from what several prominent physicians recommend or even the IACFS/ME organization, as Orla pointed out - which is now international. Yes, Bruce Campbell does focus on pacing but that exercise section was straight from the exercise section, not the pacing section, in his book. He actually had, I thought, the best take on the whole thing as one would consider that he would because his work focuses so much on so determining what patients can and cannot do and slowly improving their functioning. I thought he was a bit more discerning and careful than the rest but, nevertheless, the recommendations were there.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
Mondesi
Cort, what we have all been saying is that most doctors(and especially the ones most of us actually SEE) are NOT like these doctors. They see the word "exercise" and they try to send us to the gym. Please read the message about Dr. Yes' experience.

Many of us who are severely ill have had this kind of experience. We are unable to walk or do personal care activities, and our doctors try to get us in an exercise program. INOT matter if the wording of the document recommends mild exercise. Doctors will interpret it as exercise equals exercise programme as in gym program, which can kill us. This is the problem: No matter how it is worded, recommending exercise can cause our doctors to KILL us. This is why we are so concerned with this issue.

If this issue is not of concern to you, why do you keep trying to say your experience, suffering from a much less severe case of CFS/ME, should govern what happens to those of us who are suffering from much more severe CFS/ME? Can you not see that our experiences are different from yours, and that exercise has caused irreversible harm to many of us?

I don't know what to say WildDaisy. I really meant it when I said that I think the CME program is 'an antidote' to those bad practices. I recognize the problems with any 'exercise' program. I recognize that it's a very complicated and dicey issue. I also think that if you're going to change those opinions that this is the way to do it. And by taking a look at other physician's books and talks on the Internet - its pretty clear that it's really out there anyway.

I really think that any physician with half a brain who reads the CME will understand about the problems the physical exercise poses. That program describes in such clarity how physicians in the past have misunderstood 'exercise' and how damaging it can be that I really don't understand how the majority of them could come away not getting that. I really don't.

Let's say most physicians coming to that program with the wrong ideas about exercise. We can say that can't we? They know CFS patients are tired but they don't have a clue how bad it is or what happens to them when they exercise. The program to its credit starts off with a discussion of post-exertional malaise and it hits postexertional malaise repeatedly throughout the document - so they've already learned something important; there's a strange problem in chronic fatigue called postexertional malaise they've never heard of in another disease that prevents patients from engaging in much activity.

Lets say that 20% of the physicians somehow miss the point about exercise and they keep doing what they've always been doing, That still leaves us with 80% who now know that it must be done very carefully, that it should only be done when the patient has enough energy, that it should never make the patient feel worse, and that it should be done at very low levels regardless. I think that's really significant progress - I think overall that helps more than it hurts.
 

jackie

Senior Member
Messages
591
orla, imo your assessments of some of the differences in the US way of viewing this, are correct! Many here in the US will be seen by a Rheumatologist for a dx of Fibro (not sure about quidelines currently, but some years back "we" were told that exercise could help with fibro - NOT with cfs...making it difficult to figure out treatment for a patient with both!) In my case Rheumy=FM, Neuro=me/cfs, I.D. Doc= confirm classic viral onset me/cfs, chronic enteroviruses/chronic shingles

And orla and teej...dr. chia does "get it" re: exercise/activity! (my doc)


Gracenote...must find a way to get you a Gold Star AND a sucker!
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
Cool Jackie. That's great about Dr. Chia. I always think of that commercial, "Ch ch ch Chia!" when I hear his name.

I have to hear that I need to exercise every 3 months too because I'm on Disability. So those of us who are bad enough to be on Disability hear it the most and are the most likely to suffer from it.

The CAA may be mainstream but that's the problem! If the mainstream represented us we wouldn't have this issue with our doctors and the public. We need a Patient Advocacy Support Group that actually cares about the real issues for us and does what they can to try to educate the doctors and public about the seriousness of Post Exertional Exacerbation of Symptoms. (PEES) .. hmm .. not sure about that acronym either... lol
 

jackie

Senior Member
Messages
591
Me too, teej...been on total, permanent disability since 2000 (and it wasn't that easy for us to get, back then - and i was approved on the first try...literally no questions asked. BUT - you ARE accountable for continuing dr. visits etc.)

I always see those strange "Chia Pets".....the crazy little creatures with plants growing out of them! Fortunately the "real deal" is far from strange! If not for his care...i wouldn't be posting here.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
orla, imo your assessments of some of the differences in the US way of viewing this, are correct! Many here in the US will be seen by a Rheumatologist for a dx of Fibro (not sure about quidelines currently, but some years back "we" were told that exercise could help with fibro - NOT with cfs...making it difficult to figure out treatment for a patient with both!) In my case Rheumy=FM, Neuro=me/cfs, I.D. Doc= confirm classic viral onset me/cfs, chronic enteroviruses/chronic shingles

And orla and teej...dr. chia does "get it" re: exercise/activity! (my doc)[/SIZE]
Great. :Retro smile:
Dr. Chia has lived with it because of his son which I think can make a huge difference (as I said) in terms of understanding the issue - but not all the time.
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
Cool Jackie. That's great about Dr. Chia. I always think of that commercial, "Ch ch ch Chia!" when I hear his name.

I have to hear that I need to exercise every 3 months too because I'm on Disability. So those of us who are bad enough to be on Disability hear it the most and are the most likely to suffer from it.

The CAA may be mainstream but that's the problem! If the mainstream represented me I wouldn't have this issue with my doctors and the public. We need a Patient Advocacy Support Group that actually cares about the real issues for us and does what they can to try to educate the doctors and public about the seriousness of Post Exertional Exacerbation of Symptoms. (PEES) .. hmm .. not sure about that acronym either... lol

but, but, but he sputters! The CME is full of warnings about posting exertional malaise and the CAA Biobank requires that CFS patients have postexertional malaise in the other study. They're the first ones to do this. I really think you're both on the same playing field regarding this issue?
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
but, but, but he sputters! The CME is full of warnings about posting exertional malaise and the CAA Biobank requires that CFS patients have postexertional malaise in the other study. They're the first ones to do this. I really think you're both on the same playing field regarding this issue?

The CME is full of advice to doctors to use CBT and GET on us. That's the problem.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
Pain inhibition and postexertional malaise in myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome: An experimental study' – Source: Journal of Internal Medicine, Mar 2010

http://www.prohealth.com/library/sh...ium=SiteTracking&utm_campaign=home_LatestNews

Please delete if already posted
For anyone who is interested in some more information from this paper, I posted some at: http://www.forums.aboutmecfs.org/sh...ibition-and-post-exertional-malaise-in-ME-CFS on PR.
 

Stuart

Senior Member
Messages
154
Why dont the CAA use the following in their CME

Two hypotheses have been presented as underlying the CBT model of chronic fatigue syndrome (105). The first hypothesis "assumes that the pathophysiology of CFS is largely irreversible, but considers that a fine-tuning of the patient's understanding and coping behavior may achieve some improvement in his or her quality of life." The second hypothesis is based on the premise that the patient's impairments are learned due to wrong thinking, and "considers the pathophysiology of CFS to be entirely reversible and perpetuated only by the interaction of cognition, behavior, and emotional processes. According to this model, CBT should not only improve the quality of the patient's life, but could be potentially curative" (105). Some proponents suggest that "ideally general practitioners should diagnose CFS and refer patients to a psychotherapist for CBT without detours to medical specialists as in other functional somatic syndromes" (106,107).

The first hypothesis seems reasonable within the multi causal biopsychosocial model of disease and illness, however a cure may be found. But there is much that is objectionable in the very value-laden second hypothesis, with its implied primary causal role of cognitive, behavioral and emotional processes in the genesis of ME/CFS. This hypothesis is far from being confirmed, either on the basis of research findings or from its empirical results. Nevertheless, the assumption of its truth by some has been used to influence attitudes and decisions within the medical community and the general cultural and social milieu of ME/CFS. To ignore the demonstrated biological pathology of this illness, to disregard the patient's autonomy and experience and tell them to ignore their symptoms, all too often leads to blaming patients for their illness and withholding medical support and treatment.

It is unlikely that the CBT and GET studies that were included in the recent review of treatments (108) dealt with comparable homogeneous groups since different inclusion and exclusion criteria were used in selecting the test patients and control groups. For example, in the Prins et al. (106) CBT study on ME/CFS, patients had to meet the CDC criteria "with the exception of the criterion requiring four of eight additional symptoms to be present." If the sole CDC criterion that patients had to meet was prolonged fatigue, is not this study on chronic fatigue, rather than ME/CFS? In a study by Fulcher and White (109), comparing graded aerobic exercise to flexibility therapy, ME/CFS patients who had an appreciable sleep disturbance were excluded because of the effect that poor sleep has on fatigue. This is puzzling as in a study of symptom prevalence and severity by De Becker et al. (45), 94.8% of 951 patients meeting the Holmes criteria, and 91.9% of 1,578 patients meeting the Fukuda criteria, reported sleep disturbance with an average severity of 2.5 and 2.4, respectively, out of 3. When sleep disturbance is such an integral part of ME/CFS, do the findings in the Fulcher and White study (109) apply to ME/CFS?

A systematic review of prognosis studies show that the less stringent the clinical criteria, the better the prognosis (74). In two of the studies reviewed (110,37), 22% and 26% of patients with chronic fatigue reported recovery, respectively, whereas none and 6% of the ME/CFS patients recovered from fatigue. Therefore, care must be taken not to classify patients experiencing chronic fatigue as ME/CFS patients unless they meet all the criteria for ME/CFS, as the outcomes for these two patient groups are substantially different. It is interesting to note that in the treatment review (108), all the CBT and GET studies that indicated improvement used the less restrictive Oxford criteria with the exception of the Prins study (106) that used the CDC criteria for prolonged fatigue but eliminated the other CDC criteria. All studies excluded ME/CFS patients who were too ill to regularly attend treatment sessions.

The complexity of CBT studies, their varied inclusion and exclusion criteria, the very limited portions that can be properly blinded, and the subjective means used for most evaluations, puts in question the validity of their results. In addition, the numerous variables between the CBT studies, the CBTs and control programs, the different comparison therapies, and the varied frequency and duration of therapy, make it very challenging to determine which parts are responsible for any perceived improvement. Are any effects due to the shift in cognitive beliefs, the exercise involved, the amount and quality of the attention and counseling, the discontinuance of other medical therapies during the test period, etc.? Thus the Powell et al. study (111) found GET alone to be as effective as CBT, and the Risdale et al. study (112) found CBT to be no more effective than counseling.

The GETs included in the review (108) generally involved graded aerobic activities with variable amounts of supervision. These three studies (109,111,113) showed positive effects but the results were modest. Although the more carefully supervised study of Fulcher and White (109) found that 55% of the patients improved over a three month period compared to 27% of patients given flexibility and relaxation exercises, the most common result in both groups was "feeling a little better." Since "graded aerobic exercises programs can help reduce incapacity and symptoms in many chronic and painful conditions" (109), one wonders about the specificity of any effects in ME/CFS patients.

Do study results represent a true reflection of the ME/CFS population when there is a high dropout rate? The Prins et al. study (106) on CBT reported significant improvement in fatigue severity in 35% (20 of 58) of the patients. However, these figures do not reflect that 26% (99 of 377) of the patients who were eligible for the study "refused to take part," and of the 93 patients who were assigned to CBT, 41% (38) did not complete the trial. In a British study (100), 1,214 of 2,338 patients had tried graded exercise. Of these 417 found it to be helpful, 197 reported no change and 610 (50%) indicated that it made their condition worse. This was the highest negative rating of any of the pharmacological, non-pharmacological and alternate approaches of management covered in the questionnaire and may help explain the high drop out rates noted in some of these programs.

The question arises whether a formal CBT or GET program adds anything to what is available in the ordinary medical setting. A well informed physician empowers the patient by respecting their experiences, counsels the patients in coping strategies, and helps them achieve optimal exercise and activity levels within their limits in a common sense, non-ideological manner, which is not tied to deadlines or other hidden agenda.

Physicians must take as much care in prescribing appropriate exercise as in prescribing medications to ME/CFS patients (100). Attending physicians should only approve of exercise programs in which the patient's autonomy is respected, appropriate pacing is encouraged, fluctuations in severity of symptoms are taken into account, and adequate rest periods are incorporated. Patients should be monitored frequently but unobtrusively for signs of relapse.

Well done! :Sign Good Job:

The full text of

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome:
Clinical Working Case Definition, Diagnostic and Treatment Protocols

Bruce M. Carruthers, MD, CM, FRCP(C)
Anil Kumar Jain, BSc, MD
Kenny L. De Meirleir, MD, PhD
Daniel L. Peterson, MD
Nancy G. Klimas, MD
A. Martin Lerner, MD, PC, MACP
Alison C. Bested, MD, FRCP(C)
Pierre Flor-Henry, MB, ChB, MD, Acad DPM, FRC, CSPQ
Pradip Joshi, BM, MD, FRCP(C)
A. C. Peter Powles, MRACP, FRACP, FRCP(C), ABSM
Jeffrey A. Sherkey, MD, CCFP(C)
Marjorie I. van de Sande, BEd, Grad Dip Ed

Journal of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Vol. 11(1) 2003

Can be found at http://www.cfids-cab.org/cfs-inform/CFS.case.def/carruthers.etal03.pdf
http://www.cfids-cab.org/cfs-inform/CFS.case.def/carruthers.etal03.pdf

It would be nicely paired with

Defining CFS: Diagnostic Criteria and Case Definitions
April 14, 2010
Leonard A. Jason, PhD DePaul University

http://condor.depaul.edu/~ljason/cfs

If the CAA missed the first paper while writing their materials, they can hardly missed the Jason presentation, they hosted it! :cool:


 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
There is a lot to praise in the full "Canadian" guidelines.

But it is long for the average doctor to read. And there are some bits I have some doubts about.

I prefer the Overview:
http://www.mefmaction.net/Portals/0/docs//ME-Overview.pdf

They added some things and didn't include the bits I had problems with.
Here's something they added:
ExerciseTablefromCanadianOverview.jpg
 

Stuart

Senior Member
Messages
154
How about this bit from Vicki Carpman formerly the editor of The CFIDS Chronicle (CAA) writing about a Conference in Los Angeles in 1998:
3. Exercise Intolerance


It is widely documented that exercise is an exacerbator of CFIDS symptoms. Drs. Mena and Goldstein presented a series of SPECT scans which showed extreme hypoperfusion (reduced blood flow) in the brain following exercise. There appeared to be "holes" where blood would normally be flowing -- the degree of hypoperfusion was astonishing. Even 24 hours later, cerebral blood flow was severely reduced.

Cerebral hypoperfusion is not the only result of exercise intolerance. Drs. Lapp and Goldstein referenced irregular tidal volume rates common in PWCs. Hyperventilation and shallow breathing are frequent results of exertion. Normal controls breathe irregularly at the start of exercise, but respiration becomes regular over time. Dr. Lapp reported that PWCs breathed more regularly than controls at the outset, but during exercise their breathing was more variable. Dr. Goldstein concurred, "This phenomenon has never been described before in any population and, as of now anyway, we think that it's a diagnostic marker for CFS."

Neuroendocrine responses were often reversed or blunted in the Cheney-Lapp study. Cortisol, epinephrine, norepinephrine, DHEA levels and body temperature normally rise with exercise, but PWCs were found to have lower than expected measures of all of the above. Dr. Goldstein related this phenomenon to limbic dysfunction, as altered levels of interleukins and nitric oxide (NO) can result in altered neuroendocrine responses to exercise.

Dr. Lapp and Dr. Kathy Sietsema reported that PWCs reached anaerobic threshold much sooner than predicted. Anaerobic threshold (AT) is the point at which a healthy person becomes completely fatigued and cannot exercise any longer (commonly called "hitting the wall"). In the Cheney-Lapp study, PWCs continued exercising beyond the point of AT. Dr. Cheney has hypothesized that PWCs normally perform above AT in everyday activity due to a metabolic injury, and therefore are more accustomed to performing at this level than controls.

Source: http://immunerecoverywellness.com/pdfs/cancer/CFIDS_Brain.pdf
 

Dr. Yes

Shame on You
Messages
868
Cort -

I think it would be more productive not to respond here to your reply to my post. For that I prefer private communication or a discussion on a thread dedicated to such purposes. (See my previous post).

Back to normal dealings...

Cort:
Lets say that 20% of the physicians somehow miss the point about exercise and they keep doing what they've always been doing, That still leaves us with 80% who now know that it must be done very carefully, that it should only be done when the patient has enough energy, that it should never make the patient feel worse, and that it should be done at very low levels regardless. I think that's really significant progress - I think overall that helps more than it hurts.
(1) Your estimated percentages border on hyperbole, if the experiences documented on this forum and elsewhere are any indication. I don't think reading this CME could alter significantly (or at all) that kind of widespread recalcitrance and dogma.

(2) Even if we were to consider your estimations to be accurate, do you consider it acceptable that the 20% of "resistant" physicians reading the CME will now have additional information - from a CFS advocacy group no less - to convince them that they are right and to further deflect their patients' arguments? Surely, that is unacceptable damage.

(3) you forgot that the CME contains all that drivel about kinesiophobia, avoiding activity, "underdoing it", etc, that could negatively influence any physician's perspective on ME/CFS patients and activity or exercise. I don't know why those parts were ever allowed in the CME. Surely the First Commandment of any ME/CFS advocacy group is "Thou Shalt Not State or Imply That Any Part of a PWC's condition is All In Their Head!"?

Cort:
I really think that any physician with half a brain who reads the CME will understand about the problems the physical exercise poses. That program describes in such clarity how physicians in the past have misunderstood 'exercise' and how damaging it can be that I really don't understand how the majority of them could come away not getting that. I really don't.
You are saying, essentially, "I don't think many physicians are like that." While lots of others have been saying "trust me, I have HAD many physicans like that!" Perhaps without a controlled study we cannot prove that all those physicians would still be 'like that' after reading the CME, but it is safer to conclude from the many documented experiences that a very significant number still would be.

Furthermore, the CAA is supposed to be OUR national advocacy organization. We don't have to settle for 80% understanding (your rhetorical guess-timate). We can have our cake and eat it too, to repeat a cliche. Why can't the CAA make it clear enough so that 100% will understand it? I don't want to risk anyone getting hurt. Of course the CAA can't stop all the iatrogenic harm that goes on out there, but they can at least do the simple things right - such as make physician education material that is aimed at that 100% effectiveness, taking into account the realities of physician bias, misconceptions, or lack of wisdom (the polite way to put it! ;))
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
from Hope and Help For Chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia by Alison Bested and Alan Logan

Some CFS/FM patients <snip>
When clinicians (or anyone else) merge CFS and FM together to give exercise advice, I generally don't trust them. Some people with Fibromyalgia clearly don't have the exercise intolerance problems associated with ME/CFS.
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
from "The patient's guide to chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia" by Bruce Campbell

Because many CFS patients have a tight limit on how much activity they can do without increasing symptoms, doing exercise might require that some other activities be dropped or rescheduled.
This is a line I'd like to see with pretty much any mention of exercise for CFS.

Then many people can point out that they are not in a position to do this (drop other activities in lieu).
 

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
My muscles would just freak out - it was ridiculous. But what if I REALLY took it slowly - just a couple reps every couple of minutes. Would I have more muscle tone? I'll bet I would.
Just to point out that nobody is stopping you. You have the guidelines from the doctors there.

The one thing about exercise is that one doesn't need a prescription or FDA approval. One doesn't need a big bank account ... and yet, so many people are still sick - strange that.

Of course, if one doesn't have the illness, one can also think it might work - but you can't test it out yourself - and one can easily think there is a flaw in the patient for not at least trying.
And one will very likely think the patient didn't do it correctly if they say it didn't wrk or made them worse.