Magnesium and methylation

[harrycat]

I've only been doing the simplified methylation protocol for 10 days but I wanted to share my experiences with magnesium in case it is helpful for anyone.

I have magnesium injections as my magnesium was previously measured as low (in dr myhills tests). Before I started the SMP I had reduced the use of my injections to once every week or two as I didn't feel like my body needed them as much.

Since starting the SMP my need for magnesium has appeared to increase a whole lot. I have had cramps and also throbbing type pain in my arms and legs which I originally thought might be detox but almost completely went away 5 mins after my magnesium injections. The pain was more significant than the cramping feeling to be honest. I sometimes need to use 2 injections (ie 500 mgs since each one contains 250 mgs magnesium) to get the best response. I have also felt stiffness in my neck melt away with the magnesium. I feel as if the negative symptoms improve a lot if I either take some magnesium or some folate - both can be limiting factors.

I occasionally got a great response to magnesium prior to starting the SMP - like the stiffness easing a lot in my neck - but it was very hit and miss. I can only think that my folate deficiency (or b12?) was limiting how much it could help me.

When I first started mag injections they were quite painful to administer- as I did more they became almost pain free - I attributed this to my body being less deficient- I'm not sure if there's any science in this ! Anyhow, 3 days into the SMP when I thought I'd try a mag injection, it was as painful to inject as the first time over a year ago. So it felt to me as if I'd depleted my magnesium. I'm now injecting once a day at least when I feel I need it.

Just as an aside, I tried a 500mg potassium oral dose and didn't feel any improvement. It's magnesium not potassium that seems to matter to me!

Is my body therefore using a lot more magnesium now I'm on the SMP? Why?
Another question- if I get all this response to mag injections does it mean I'm not absorbing it properly from my diet? Or that I just need much bigger doses than I can get that way?

Hope that this is helpful to someone experiencing crappy symptoms on the SMP- without the magnesium I would be in a bad way by now.

 

[Glynis Steele]

Hi there,

I found this comment below, from another forum, might be of interest to you.

Glynis x

I've had ME/ CFS (CFIDS / NEID's) or whatever you want to call it since Jan 2004.

I saw my Doctor in Melbourne yesterday Dr Donald Lewis.

Amongst other things I asked about the Chronic muscle pain and the Chronic Myofascial pain (Syndrome) which is a condition characterized by chroniclly severe pain.
(The Anethstista and Pain Specialist and his team that I saw last March said in his view I am totally and perminantly disabled for work due pain, its not a fun place to be).
Chronic Myofascial pain (Syndrome) is associated primarily with "trigger points", localized and sometimes extremely painful lumps or nodules in any of the body's muscles or connective tissue known as fascia (Fibromialgia). In my case its having extreamly sore Myofascial sheiths (fascia) around my muscles. With a damaged Magnesium and Potassium channelopathy Magnesium cant get to the D-lactic (in large numbers) acid being absorbed into the bloodstream and ending up in the muscles and particularly the Myofascial sheiths (fascia) as a result of bacterial growth particularly the Streptococcus group. High strep previously recorded.

http://www.cfids-cab.org/rc/Sheedy.pdf

" Increased D-Lactic Acid Intestinal Bacteria in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome" by ;
JOHN R. SHEEDY , RICHARD E.H.WETTENHALL , DENIS SCANLON ,
PAUL R. GOOLEY , DONALD P. LEWIS , NEIL MCGREGOR ,
DAVID I. STAPLETON , HENRY L. BUTT and KENNY L. DE MEIRLEIR6

Doc Lewis prescribed a magnesium IV in Hartmann's solution which I had at his rooms immediatly after the appointment.

An hour after I left the Doctors on my way to overnight with Mum and Dad I couldn't work out why I was smiling. Then it dawned on me. For the first time in 7 years my muscles and myofascial were not screaming in pain.

I was pain free. I was pain free when I got to Mum and Dads an hour later. I was pain free whenI went to bed. I got 12 hours solid sleep. Awesome.

Magnesium IV's in Hartmann's solution really work well for muscle and Chronic Myofascial pain.

 

[ty98]

I have worked on some of the same process of trying high amount of amino acids that help the methylation. I have had good results, but I waiting to make more improvements to it. Disruptions in the amino biosythesis can lead to many bodily problems. I had several clues here including abnormal amino acid tests in both blood and urine. When you look at the methylation process, you can see where disruptions will cause an imbalance in the chemistry and abnormal results. Magnesium was one that I found to improve the process, but have sense switch to other supplements. I got great results from using a magnesium gel.

 

[richvank]

Hi, harrycat.

Thank you for posting your experience with magnesium and methylation treatment.

It appears that in ME/CFS the intracellular magnesium concentration is lower than normal. It isn't completely understood why. It seems to be associated with glutathione depletion, based on published experiments with red blood cells. I've suspected that the membrane ion pumps are not able to bring in enough magnesium because of low ATP production by the mitochondria as a result of glutathione depletion. ATP is needed to power the ion pumps, because the concentration of magnesium is normally higher inside the cells than in the extracellular fluid outside the cells.

I think Dr. de Meirleir's view is that it is due to channelopathy. That is, there are problems with the ion channels. I don't understand the whole story on that yet, but perhaps this type of damage is associated with glutathione depletion, as, for example if it is caused by the increased oxidative stress that is inherent in glutathione depletion.

In any case, the methylation treatment has been found to raise glutathione, and that may be allowing the cells to accumulate more magnesium, thus placing a greater demand on it. Normally, magnesium is the second most concentrated positive ion inside cells, after potassium. In addition to bringing the concentration of magnesium up in your existing cells, the folate will make it possible to make new cells more readily, and they will also need magnesium. So maybe it is a combination between restoring the magnesium levels in your existing cells and making new cells, which also need magnesium.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[harrycat]

Thanks for the responses and Rich too for your really helpful explanation.

I'm not sure how much I can/should push the injections. If I injected 750mg or a gram in a day could I do myself any damage? I just wonder how I'm supposed to tell how much I need. Has anyone any experience of injecting magnesium ? I'd love to know your dosage! Thanks.

 

[richvank]

Thanks for the responses and Rich too for your really helpful explanation.

I'm not sure how much I can/should push the injections. If I injected 750mg or a gram in a day could I do myself any damage? I just wonder how I'm supposed to tell how much I need. Has anyone any experience of injecting magnesium ? I'd love to know your dosage! Thanks.

Hi, harrycat.

I don't know what dosage would be best for you. I do know that if your kidney function is normal (which would be consistent with the low blood creatinine level you reported), your kidneys should be able to extract excess magnesium from your blood and excrete it in the urine. This is what makes it possible for people to use Milk of Magnesia as a laxative. Some magnesium is absorbed into the blood from this, but the excess is taken out by the kidneys.

Rich

 

[harrycat]

That's interesting, Rich, thanks again. Does taking magnesium to bowel tolerance work with injecting? Perhaps I'd be better to add some oral mag after my injection, might be an interesting experiment.
What dosages of magnesium are people taking here (even if oral?) thanks.

 

[Sasha]

Hi harrycat - I'm taking 360mg/day via Mg oil, which you rub into the skin. I started getting signs of deficiency having started Freddd's b12 protocol and am just upping the dose.

 

[richvank]

That's interesting, Rich, thanks again. Does taking magnesium to bowel tolerance work with injecting? Perhaps I'd be better to add some oral mag after my injection, might be an interesting experiment.
What dosages of magnesium are people taking here (even if oral?) thanks.

Hi, Harrycat.

It's possible to put more magnesium into the blood by injecting than by taking it orally to bowel tolerance. However, eventually one reaches the limit of what the kidneys can extract and excrete, and that's not good.

Rich

 

[Freddd]

I have a few comments on the subject of epsom salts bath. For a decade when I couldn't sleep more than a few hours, the only way I could actually get rested was by floating in a floatation tank. I have a Samahdi Tank. I would start my night every night in the tank for on average 2-5 hours, then showe off and go to bed. The tank has 18 inchs or so of 1.25 density epsom salt solution (about 700 pounds in 180 gallons or so) so one floats high, like the old pictures of the Great Salt Lake in the 60s. I don't know how much is absorbed via the skin but it helped me survive.

 

[anne_likes_red]

harrycat I'm taking 650mg mag chelate, 1000mg taurine (which I think helps with the uptake of magnesium) plus I use magnesium oil. I use mg citrate whenever I take activated charcoal.
A recent hair test indicates I'm still deficient in magnesium. I must have been extremely deficiant before!! Plus, as you noted, I agree the demand for mg seems to be increased as methylation improves.

 

[SJB944]

Fred,

There was some research done in the UK which showed that a hot bath with high concentration of epsom salts elevated serum magnesium levels.

 

[Glynis Steele]

Here it is, Rosemary Waring is the researcher who was looking at sulphation issue's in autism.

george-eby-research dot com/html/absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf

Glynis x

 

[richvank]

Here it is, Rosemary Waring is the researcher who was looking at sulphation issue's in autism.

george-eby-research dot com/html/absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf

Glynis x

Hi, Glynis.

Thanks for posting this. It's a nice, practical study. People who have ME/CFS are often found to be low in both magnesium and sulfate. Many do benefit from Epsom salt baths. However, some respond badly to them. I have suggested that in these cases, the people have sulfate-reducing bacteria in the gut, which convert sulfate into hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic at high enough levels, and causes symptoms.

I think there are a couple of possible reasons why people with ME/CFS can be low in sulfate. One is that the methylation cycle partial block causes dysfunction in the sulfur metabolism as a whole, and in some cases the sulfur metabolites have drained through the pathway rapidly and have been excreted. In these cases, methionine, which feeds the sulfur metabolism, is often depleted. The other factor is that some people with ME/CFS have a high body burden of mercury, because their detox system is not working well, again because of the dysfunction in the sulfur metabolism. Elevated mercuy can block the transporters in the kidneys that normally reabsorb sulfate.

Best regards,

Rich

 

[penny]

I take 600mg oral magnesium a day (was taking mag glycinate but now malate), and often have an epsom salt bath at night.

I've tried taking more orally but it negatively impacts my already poor GI health...

 

[ty98]

Getting back on this a little late. I wanted to add some of my experience here since this is a good topic for CFS. I had my aminos tested in 2010 and my methionine urine result was 4, normal range is 38 to 210. Methionine uses creatine and others in synthesis, but explains why my creatine has been high for several years. I currently take alot of supplements to drive the blocked cycles and have been getting some good results so far. When the cycle is blocked, alot of the body functions are compromised. When the cycle is being restored, it takes some time (months) for the other functions to come back and begin to work together again. You can tell when the old self is working when you begin to enjoy the summer heat again. Reworking the cycle I believe is a key factor to better health.

 

[SJB944]

Hi Harrycat,

Inject 1/2ml 50% Magnesium sulfate daily, which is what Dr Myhill was recommending a few years ago (before all that nonsense with the General Medical Council). So 1/2ml injection would be about 250mg Magnesium.