• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

New GP Guidelines for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Messages
72
Location
UK
I apologise if this has already been posted elsewhere but I found it amazing that we in the UK are being forced further back in time by our GPs.

http://www.meassociation.org.uk/?p=6959

It could explain why when I saw my GP last week, he, for the first time in the 6 years I have suffered from this disease, told me I ought to see a psychiatrist, and actually told me I had a personality disorder (even though he is not qualified to make such an assumption).

I put a lot of scientific facts to him, which he totally ignored. If anything I think that I wasn't the one in the room with the personality disorder - if 'Denial' can be referred to as such.

When are they going to get it? :worried:

Laurence :In bed:
 

max

Senior Member
Messages
192
I'm neither stunned nor amazed - what else can we expect? It is a long time since I held any respect for a GP or NHS/NICE/DWP/MRC etc employee.

Until Mrs Wessely is removed from her position, advice to GP's will remain the same. Those that appoint these individuals have no concept of a 'conflict of interest'.



max:(
 

Enid

Senior Member
Messages
3,309
Location
UK
Can't get it right can they - but interestingly a few more tests than I ever had. Until they name it correctly - ME - they just might eventually learn about the real thing.
 

orion

Senior Member
Messages
102
Location
UK
It does indeed beggar belief. However, it's not really relevant to me as I've completely disengaged from the healthcare system. I do my own research and if I come across a promising drug that I can afford, I order it with my own money over the internet.

It's been literally years since I last saw my GP (or any other doctor for that matter). Last time I went I was refused the treatment I requested even though I volunteered to pay for it myself. So I haven't been back since.
 

Mark

Senior Member
Messages
5,238
Location
Sofa, UK
Disgusting.

InnovAIT: New GP Guidelines for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, 8 July 2011
Who are InnovAIT?
Yes indeed, I keep asking myself the same question. Who the hell are these people?...
(www.oxfordjournals.org/our_journals/innovait/about.html)
InnovAiT is a journal for Associates in Training (AiTs) of the Royal College of General Practitioners that promotes excellence in primary care and quality education. Rotating through the whole new curriculum for the nMRCGP on a three year cycle, InnovAiT supports and assists the learning and development of AiTs as they progress through training.

Text in full:
In this article, we outline GP management of chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), the condition also known colloquially in the UK as ME.
Here we go...right from the off, the politics, spin, disinformation..."known colloquially in the UK"...PAH! So: CFS and ME are simply the same thing, then, eh? And "ME" is a "colloquial" name, "CFS" is the "real" name, presumably?

And we are invited to believe that this kind of spin is not deliberate misinformation and obfuscation...

I'm angry already...

The paper is based on National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) guidelines and also incorporates evidence-based strategies available to specialist services. GPs are well placed to make an early diagnosis of CFS and give patients helpful advice to manage their fatigue, hopefully avoiding multiple inappropriate referrals to specialist medical clinics.
So...I think we can safely assume that the entire document is lies, lies, lies from start to finish then? Nice guidelines and the old "evidence-based" swindle...and, well of course, GPs are so "well-placed to make an early diagnosis of CFS"...I mean, everybody knows the truth of that, right? And of course they are just full of helpful advice to manage fatigue...how on earth do they come up with this stuff?

The GP curriculum and chronic fatigue syndrome GP curriculum statement 13: Care of people with mental health problems states that GPs in training should be able to manage patients presenting to general practice with a history of chronic fatigue or tired all the time. In particular, GPs in training should be able to:
Manage people experiencing tiredness in primary care, bearing in mind that several interventions may be effective, including different forms of talking therapy, medication and self-help
Describe the need to check for psychological illness while avoiding the habit of checking extensively for physical illness
Show that they understand that ideas about the physical, psychological and social should be integrated in both consultation and investigation of illness
Well now, let's get straight in there with "people with mental health problems" eh? Set the scene...

And we're now talking about "chronic fatigue" and "tired all the time"...remembering that "CFS" is the real name and "ME" is just a "colloquial" name...so we are (apparently) talking about ME here too...

Talking therapy, (unspecified) medication and self-help...hurrah!

GP curriculum requires this scandalous behaviour:
"Describe the need to check for psychological illness while avoiding the habit of checking extensively for physical illness"

Criminal.

What is chronic fatigue syndrome?
The single common denominator in all patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is debilitating fatigue that affects function and is worsened by activity, not relieved by rest, and causes substantial disability. Worsening of function is often delayed by 2448 hours, leading to the boom and bust experience. Instead of conserving energy on good days, people tend to overdo things, causing excessive fatigue over the next few days. Disturbed and unrefreshing sleep may then further augment the fatigue.
This stuff just leaves me speechless.

"Instead of conserving energy on good days, people tend to overdo things".

It's their own behaviour that's to blame, of course...

People with CFS also report reduced memory and concentration which can in turn affect working life and academic studies. School attendance can be affected by CFS in children. Headaches, generalized joint and muscle pains, feelings of dizziness, altered sensation and intolerances to noise and light are frequent complaints. There is often a perception of increased frequency of minor infections (e.g. sore throats/feeling fluey) and temperature disturbance.
Note "complaints" and "perception". Very important to emphasise that the patients merely perceive that they suffer frequent infections and temperature disturbance...not to accept that we actually do....

According to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), criteria symptoms should have been present for more than 4 months but should not be life-long.
Symptoms may begin gradually or at a specific point in time (e.g. following a viral illness) and vary in severity.
People who are mildly affected remain mobile and self-caring. With some difficulty, they can perform light domestic tasks and tend to remain in work and education while feeling excessively fatigued in evenings and at weekends, thus severely hampering their previous levels of leisure activities.
As well as using weekends to recover, they may require frequent days off work. Those moderately affected have reduced levels of mobility, are restricted in activities of daily living and have mostly stopped work. Feeling the need for frequent rest periods, they tend to sleep during the day and have disturbed nocturnal sleep. Towards the severe end of the spectrum, people are very limited in their ability to carry out activities of daily living for themselves, experience severe cognitive difficulties and may be wheelchair dependent for mobility. They will often feel unable to leave the house. The severely affected can be bed bound, dependent for all care, and very sensitive to light and noise.
That just about covers everybody then, doesn't it? It may start gradually or at a specific point in time, it may be mild, moderate, severe or very severe...and the bedbound often "feel" unable to leave the house...please don't validate the feelings of these people...
What causes CFS?

There can be a profound effect on a family when one member develops CFS. Other family members can struggle to come to terms with the diagnosis and there is often a financial burden to bear. If a parent is affected that person may have to give up work. Even if children are affected, parents may have to give up work to care for them. Affected children can become socially isolated from their peers. There can be a stigma attached to CFS; even medical professionals may negatively stereotype people with CFS.
Much truth here. "Even medical professionals may negatively stereotype people with CFS". Wow, yes, even medical professionals! Indeed, even the authors of guideline documents for GPs may negatively stereotype people with CFS...

No single causative agent for CFS has been identified. It can be triggered by viral infection in some patients, but serological evidence does not implicate any specific virus despite recent suggestions that a retrovirus is implicated. However, there do seem to be multiple predisposing, triggering and maintaining factors that contribute (Box 1).
CFS overlaps considerably with other medically unexplained conditions such as irritable bowel syndrome and fibromyalgia. One US-based casecontrol study (White et al., 2000) found that 58% of females and 80% of males with fibromyalgia meet diagnostic criteria for CFS. Familial aggregation has also been noted in CFS although it is unclear what contribution comes from hereditary as opposed to environmental factors.
Let's quote White. No mention of which definition of CFS was used in his study. No mention of diagnostic criteria here at all, in fact. No attempt to sub-categorise the condition of CFS (known "colloquially" as ME). It's all the same dustbin, of course...

"Familial aggregation has also been noted in CFS although it is unclear what contribution comes from hereditary as opposed to environmental factors."

And of couse in the absence of any research, it will remain unclear...

All this makes CFS a difficult condition to categorize. Although there is no evidence that CFS is a neurological condition, the World Health Organization (WHO) has categorized it as neurological (G93.3). However, the Royal College of General Practitioners (RCGP) classifies fatigue within its mental health curriculum statement. Some members of the NICE Guideline Development Group (GDG) felt that until further research identifies aetiology and pathogenesis, the guideline should recognize the WHO classification. Others felt that to do so did not reflect the nature of the illness. Practically, as in the management of other medically unexplained symptoms where the goal is improved function, perhaps the precise diagnostic category to which CFS is attached is unhelpful.
Silly old WHO eh? Classifying it as neurological even though there's "no evidence" that it is. Who wrote this crap, the three wise monkeys?

Box 1.
Possible predisposing, precipitating and perpetuating factors for CFS
Predisposing
Hormonal
Genetic
Stress
Lifestyle
Prolonged high achievement/high standards
Precipitating
Virus
Physical trauma
Stressful event
Surgery
Vaccination
Perpetuating
Stress
Disorganization
Poor sleep
Denial
Over-exertion
Isolation
Boom and bust
List includes plenty of factors blaming the patient - denial, disorganisation, over-exertion, boom-and-bust, lifestyle, high standards (yeah, I guess the authors of a document like this would have a problem with high standards!). Surprisingly, though, "Vaccination" is accepted as a "Precipitating" factor!!!! OK then: lets use what they put in. These people agree that vaccination can be a precipitating factor for CFS. Their words, not mine...

But what's missing from this list? Toxins, chemical poisoning, toxic mold exposure, perhaps?...

Who gets CFS?
Although symptom prevalence of CFS is likely to have remained static over time, recent diagnostic trends have affected estimates of prevalence.
Hmm...yes, if you keep broadening the diagnostic criteria, that will tend to affect the prevalence...

Fatigue alone is a common symptom, affecting 1020% of people in the UK. CFS, in which debilitating fatigue is accompanied by additional features, is currently estimated to affect at least 0.20.4% of the population (NICE, 2007), equating to approximately 24 people for every 1000 on a GP practice list.
Seems a reasonably accurate sentence...although hold on, earlier on, we heard simply that fatigue was the only defining characteristic...and we heard nothing yet, still, about diagnostic criteria...what about these "additional features"?...

In adults, the most common age of onset is from early twenties to mid-forties. In children, the most common age of onset is from 13 to 15 years of age. Women are affected more than men. All ethnic groups and social levels are affected. One US-based telephone survey (Jason et al., 1999) found that ethnic minority groups and people of lower educational and occupational status were more likely to be affected.
Now this is interesting...

Note that "CFS" now disproportionately affects "ethnic minority groups and people of lower educational and occupational status". Gone are the days when it was a "yuppie flu" disease affecting white middle class women! Now it affects mainly the opposite profile! And the evidence for this? "One US-based telephone survey". And note also that a recent UK study that found that "CF/CFS" affects about 10 times as many people as previously thought (so long as you use the loosest imaginable criteria) also emphasised these same groups.

There is a very clear agenda here to redefine "CFS" and pull in more ethnic minorities and socially disadvantaged people. This latest agenda needs watching very closely, because it is clearly a key part of the strategy going forward as to how the "CFS" label is to be used...and the implications of this are extremely disturbing...

What can be done in primary care?
Can GPs make a diagnosis of CFS?
GPs are well equipped to diagnose CFS in adults, but NICE (2007) recommends that GPs do not make the diagnosis of CFS in children but instead refer to a paediatric service (after symptoms have been present for 6 weeks). Make a diagnosis of CFS on positive grounds while at the same time excluding other possible diagnoses.

Red flag features that suggest an alternative diagnosis include:
localizing/focal neurological signs
signs and symptoms of inflammatory arthritis
connective tissue disease
cardiorespiratory disease
significant weight loss
sleep apnoea or
clinically significant lymphadenopathy
Neurological signs, weight loss, sleep apnoea, lymphadenopathy...all of them to be evidence for excluding a CFS diagnosis? OK, so is this just about redefining CFS to exclude all the characteristic signs? But remember: "ME" is the "colloquial" name for CFS...yet its defining symptoms are all "red flags" suggesting CFS diagnosis may not be appropriate...perhaps the aim is to kick the genuine "ME/CFS" out of the diagnosis while broadening the criteria to define a new group of people...while the true "ME/CFS" can remain in a "medically unexplained" limbo?...

If there are any features of these conditions, then these should be investigated and managed accordingly. In the absence of any red flag symptoms or signs, it can be difficult to know how far down the investigatory pathway to go. NICE (2007) lists appropriate screening blood tests which if negative can give confidence that an alternative medical diagnosis is unlikely (Box 2).
What attitude should GPs have?
It is important to remember that people with CFS want to be taken seriously, so show that you believe them. Doctors can make a difference to patients well being even when they cannot explain their symptoms medically. Therefore, concentrate on managing symptoms and improving function.
Hmm...yes it would be nice to be taken seriously...and this is not bad advice, on the face of it...

The doctorpatient relationship is vital in this, so ensure that you connect with patients by listening carefully to their beliefs about their symptoms. Allow patients to recap their view of the situation and share your action plan with patients, making it goal centred and aiming for functional improvement. The recent RCGP publication on medically unexplained symptoms provides useful advice in this area (RCGP/Royal College of Psychiatrists/Trailblazers/National
Mental Health Development Unit, 2011).
And yes, listening to the "beliefs about their symptoms" sounds nice too, eh? But I shudder to think what that Royal College of Psychiatrists National Mental Health Development Unit document has to say about managing the medically unexplained...but would I be surprised to learn that it emphasises the importance of pretending to patients that you're taking their beliefs seriously? No I would not...

Box 2.
Investigations to consider in patients presenting with symptoms suggestive of CFS
Tests that should usually be done:
- Urinalysis for protein, blood and glucose
- Full blood count
- Renal function (including urea, creatinine, electrolytes and estimated glomerular filtration rate)
- Liver function
- Thyroid function
- Erythrocyte sedimentation rate or plasma viscosity
- C-reactive protein
- Random blood glucose
- Screening blood tests for gluten sensitivity
- Serum calcium
- Creatine kinase
- Serum ferritin levels (children and young people only)
An interesting list of tests that should be done there, I guess we've all had most of those and got nowhere...some of these are perhaps worth doing if we haven't had them, but more likely that's just a list of tests that can be guaranteed not to show anything, because the next list is far more interesting: tests that GPs should avoid!!!

Tests that should be avoided:
- Head-up tilt test
- Auditory brainstem responses
- Electrodermal conductivity
Tests that should be avoided except in certain circumstances:
- Serum ferritin in adults, unless other tests suggest iron deficiency
- Tests for vitamin B12 or folate levels, unless a full blood count and mean cell volume show a macrocytosis
- Serological testing, unless there is an indicative history of an infection; if so, consider tests for:
- Chronic bacterial infections, such as borreliosis
- Chronic viral infections, such as human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) or hepatitis B or C
- Acute viral infections, such as infectious mononucleosis
- Latent infections, such as toxoplasmosis, EpsteinBarr virus or cytomegalovirus
Source: NICE (2007)
I think I understand this document well enough now to know that if they want GPs to avoid these tests, then this is a good list of tests that we want!

What information and education can GPs give?
Give early advice on symptom management, even before a diagnosis is established. Tailor this advice to the specific symptoms that the patient has, aiming to minimize the impact of these symptoms on daily life and activities. Explain to patients that there is no pharmacological treatment which is proven to cure CFS but reassure them that recovery is a realistic outcome, even though it takes time.
Take a detailed bio-psychosocial history to identify potential perpetuating factors and highlight the patients expectations and goals. Also emphasize the importance of a well-balanced diet. Do not advise patients to undertake unsupervised, or unstructured, vigorous activity, such as simply go to the gym or exercise more. Action for ME is a helpful support group that patients can be directed to. Its Website (www.afme.org.uk) has a professional section and an
interactive online ME centre. Another useful Website to tell patients about is www.neurosymptoms.org.
Well at least they are advising against vigorous activity! That's something, I guess. And Action for ME are recommended...well...

What disability support can GPs facilitate?
Ensure appropriate equipment and adaptations are provided for people with moderate to severe CFS by referring to local social services. Address early a patients ability to continue in work and education. When appropriate, and with the patients full consent, liaise with employers, educational providers and support services such as occupational health departments, disability services through Jobcentre Plus, schools and disability advisors at universities and colleges to support any necessary changes or allowances to enable the patient to stay in work or education. Make sure patients are receiving their full benefit entitlement. Some of these benefits are listed in Box 3. The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) Benefits Enquiry Line (BEL) (Telephone: 0800 88 22 00 in England, Wales and Scotland) gives information on benefits for sick and disabled people, their representatives and carers, and offers help with filling out claim forms for Disability Living Allowance and Attendance Allowance. If there is any uncertainty advise the patient to contact the Citizens Advice Bureau.
Well thanks for referring us to social services and doing everything possible to keep us in work and education...hmm...I think that may be helpful...

Box 3.
Benefits which people with CFS could potentially claim (depending on circumstances)
If there are care needs or mobility problems:
Disability living allowance (age under 65 years) or Attendance Allowance (aged 65 years or over)
If unable to work:
Statutory Sick Pay or Employment and Support Allowance
If currently in employment:
Working Tax Credit
If a family member cares for the patient:
Carers Allowance
Other potential benefits:
Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit
Benefits because there are children in the family
Cheaper public transport and parking concessions
Practical help with care from the local council
Now that could be a useful list...there is always some good to be found in any document I guess...

What can GPs do for symptom management?
Where appropriate give advice about sleep management. Explain the role and effect disordered sleep can have in CFS and give advice on sleep hygiene. This includes:
Establishing fixed times for going to bed and waking up (and avoiding sleeping in after a poor nights sleep)
Trying to relax before going to bed
Maintaining a comfortable sleeping environment (not too hot, cold, noisy or bright)
Avoiding daytime napping
Avoiding caffeine, nicotine and alcohol within 6 hours of going to bed
Avoiding exercise within 4 hours of bedtime (although exercise earlier in the day is beneficial)
Avoiding eating a heavy meal late at night.
It is helpful also to avoid watching or checking the clock throughout the night and to only use the bedroom for sleep.
Although no medication is recommended, a small dose of a tricyclic antidepressant (such as amitriptyline 1020 mg at about 78 p.m.) may help with sleep disturbance and also pain.
Rest periods are an integral part of managing CFS. Advise patients to limit rest periods to 30 minutes at a time to avoid prolonged bed rest and introduce low level physical and cognitive activities which they enjoy. Relaxation techniques appropriate to people with CFS should be offered to manage pain, sleep problems and co-morbid stress and anxiety.
Adaptive pacing therapy (APT) is an energy management strategy in which patients are encouraged to achieve an appropriate balance between activity and rest. Pacing includes taking short, frequent rests, trying not to push through the fatigue and avoiding the boom and bust cycle (dont do too little on a bad day or too much on a good day). Many patients with CFS have reported benefit from APT.
A pain management approach for those with chronic widespread pain includes reassurance that becoming gradually more active is helpful rather than harmful, recommendation of relaxation and distraction techniques, use of physical methods where possible and avoidance of over-medication. Advise nauseous patients to eat little but often and to snack on dry starchy foods and sip fluids.
The general sleep advice seems to beg the question really; all good advice but surely we're doing all this already and still struggling? Trying to aim for fixed sleeping/waking times seems like a complete dead loss and a depressingly unachievable goal to me...but then I've only been at this for 16 years now...

It's nice to see the APT advice in there, though...that's good to see in spite of the PACE Trial's shenanigans...

When should GPs refer to secondary care?
NICE (2007) recommends that any decision to refer adults to a specialist CFS service should be based on the patients individual needs, the type, duration, complexity and severity of their symptoms and the presence of co-morbidities. The decision should be made jointly by the patient and health care professional. NICE states that referral to specialist CFS care should be considered within 6 months of presentation for people with mild CFS, within 34 months of presentation for people with moderate CFS symptoms and immediately for people with severe CFS symptoms. Refer all children to a paediatric service after symptoms have been present for 6 weeks.
Currently, there is insufficient evidence to justify the use of any immunological agents, anti-virals, corticosteroids, nutritional supplements (e.g. magnesium sulphate) or complementary and alternative therapies such as homeopathy in the treatment of CFS.
Another list of treatments with "insufficient evidence"...and thus, another good list of treatments well worth looking into...

Cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) and graded exercise therapy (GET) have the strongest evidence for beneficial effect in CFS. Randomized control trials (RCTs) have shown statistically significant improvements in patient outcomes with CBT compared to either relaxation therapy (Deal et al., 1997, 2001) or a support group approach (Prins et al., 2001). RCT evidence has also shown statistically significant improvement in symptoms with GET compared to relaxation therapy (Fulcher and White, 1997) or standardized medical care (Powell et al., 2001). However, all these studies were limited by their small sample sizes. While NICE (2007) recommends the use of CBT and GET, some patients have suggested that CBT and GET may be harmful, many of these patients favouring APT. However, a recent well-conducted randomized trial concluded that CBT and GET can be used safely and that CBT and GET are more effective treatments than APT or specialist medical care (SMC) (White et al., 2011).
Here we go...yes...of course they have the "strongest evidence" base because for the last 25 years they have been the exclusive focus of research and that research has been twisted and manipulated shamelessly...and everything else has been ignored...and of course the "beneficial effect" of CBT and GET is minimal at best...and the fact that "some" patients have "suggested" that they may be harmful is still not insignificant...

How can GPs help with setbacks?
Setbacks and relapses are common in CFS and may be triggered by unexpected or unplanned activities, poor sleep, infection or excessive stress. Encourage patients, if possible, to maintain activity and exercise levels during such setbacks. It is doubtful whether such patients will benefit from further specialist input.
Fantastic. Well: that's some of the best advice yet. If you have a setback or relapse, due to infection or excessive stress, then you will be encourage to carry on with whatever activity and exercise you were able to do before...that is really amazing advice that. And yes, it is indeed doubtful that patients will ever benefit from specialist input...so don't waste any more money on them when their suffering worsens, please...

Conclusions
While in the past people with CFS have often had a poor outcome and reported dissatisfaction with the quality of medical care that they receive, things seem to be improving.
What??!!!

Things seem to be improving, eh?

There's evidence that we are less dissatisfied with the quality of medical care? Really?

In a survey of people with CFS in 2008, respondents reported that 40% of GPs were supportive and a further 23% were very supportive. Evidence-based treatments are now leading to sustainable improvements in patients outcomes, for adults and children, and GPs are well positioned to give helpful advice for managing fatigue early in the illness.
Well, OK, I would say that my GP is supportive.

He has absolutely no idea what to do, and he feels very bad about it, and he's profoundly ignorant about the condition (thanks to documents like this one), but he's a good chap, and he's very supportive. So what...is the improvement that GPs are less damaging in their behaviour than previously? I guess that may be true...

Key points
CFS is a condition that can significantly impair function
GPs are well placed to make a diagnosis of CFS and advise on early management strategies
No therapeutic agent has been shown to have convincing benefit in CFS
CBT and GET are beneficial
Key responses:
* Yes it certainly can: well spotted!
* No they most certainly are not - are you kidding me?
* Do some bloody research on the things that work then, and stop debunking them.
* Liar liar pants on fire.

The authors of the article above are listed as:
Dr Jeremy C Gibson, Department of Rehabilitation Medicine, Royal Derby Hospital, Derby
Ms Bozena Smith, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Services, Royal Derby Hospital
Professor Christopher D Ward, Department of Rehabilitation Medicine, Royal Derby Hospital, Derby, and Rehabilitation Research and Education Group, University of Nottingham.
Very interesting!

So it is the three wise monkeys!

And they're just down the road...might have to pay these chaps a visit one of these days...
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
Hi, if I were living in the UK, I think I would mostly take Mark's advice and for most of what they told me think the opposite. I enjoyed your analysis Mark. How can such willful ignorance exist in a caring society? I feel sorry for you guys, and in case you are not aware of it, advocates the entire world over are behind you in the fight. At least there are signs now that several countries in Europe are dubious, and one has rejected CBT/GET for now, maybe this will become a trend and the UK policy will be revealed for what it is. Bye, Alex
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
I guess the authors of a document like this would have a problem with high standards!

I always think this whenever I see poor CFS research that seems to over-emphasise some role for perfectionism. Personally, I've always been a lazy botcher... but even with my low standards, I wouldn't want my name associated with most of the psychosocial CFS research about.

Also, for the perpetuating factors... there's no mention of any possibility of biological abnormalities, even though genetic factors are mentioned as predisposing. Stress is mentioned for predisposing and perpetuating, but it seems that genetic factors, once they've played their role in triggering the illness, are assumed to magically disappear. What wonderful news - how encouraging for us to have them lie about the extent to which the perpetuating factors of our illness are under our control - aren't they kindly?
 

gregf

Senior Member
Messages
144
Location
Sydney Australia
These "doctors" have CIDS.

(from Wikipedia 2018 edition).

Chronic Illness Denial Syndrome. It was quite common in psychiatrists particularly
in the denial of ME. They develop obsessive behaviour, continuously writing papers that deny the existence of an illness. They even organised entire conferences around the subject so it becomes a form of mass hysteria. It seems to be a form of personality disorder or even the result of childhood sexual abuse.

The most famous example is where they made up a whole new name for an illness : Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

CIDS is best treated with Cognitive Behaviour Therapy and Graded exercise Therapy.

CFS was finally discredited in 2012 when the XMRV retrovirus was shown to be the cause of ME.

Greg.
 
Messages
17
Location
Ireland
you know what my doctor told me today? that it was just a bit of tiredness and it will go away if i exercise.......words cannot describe how angry i am.I have tried exercising but it does not help. it just makes me crash.Im in ireland.
 

Francelle

Senior Member
Messages
444
Location
Victoria, Australia
"All this makes CFS a difficult condition to categorise. Although there is no evidence that CFS is a neurological condition, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has categorised it as neurological (G93.3)."

All I can say then is, "you doctors have been very remiss in finding my true diagnosis - so hop to it, pull your finger out and delve into your textbooks to find what causes my constellation of neurological signs & symptoms. It's got to be in there".
 

Francelle

Senior Member
Messages
444
Location
Victoria, Australia
Has anyone had a look at the website that they recommend patients visit, apart from Action for ME? "Another useful Website to tell patients about is www.neurosymptoms.org.

It just looks like a brainwashing website to me. What I have looked at so far is quite unbelievable! Am I wrong - I know it's very late here and my perceptions could be a bit off?
 

Enid

Senior Member
Messages
3,309
Location
UK
Medical establishment here in the UK are in a "denial" syndrome and far too grand to absorb the research and findings of international scientists and learn about the real thing (now increasingly understood and treated elsewhere). We know more than they from following and by necessity. How can InnoAIT claim to be "promoting excellence". To read Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) "known colloquially in the UK as ME" is astounding and revealing.
 

SilverbladeTE

Senior Member
Messages
3,043
Location
Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
And folk wonder how the Nazis managed to get physicians to EAGERLY exterminate nearly a million disabled people...look no further!
Murder by Bureacracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors'_Trial
In December 1946, an American military tribunal (commonly called the Doctors' Trial) tried 23 doctors and administrators for their roles in war crimes and crimes against humanity. These crimes included the systematic killing of those deemed "unworthy of life", including the mentally disabled, the institutionalized mentally ill, and the physically impaired. After 140 days of proceedings, including the testimony of 85 witnesses and the submission of 1,500 documents, in August 1947 the court pronounced 16 of the defendants guilty. Seven were sentenced to death and executed on 2 June 1948. They included Dr. Karl Brandt and Viktor Brack.


Commemorative plate on wall on bunker No. 17 in Fort VIIThe indictment read in part:

14. Between September 1939 and April 1945 the defendants Karl Brandt, Blome, Brack, and Hoven unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly committed crimes against humanity, as defined by Article II of Control Council Law No. 10, in that they were principals in, accessories to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in, and were connected with plans and enterprises involving the execution of the so called "euthanasia" program of the German Reich, in the course of which the defendants herein murdered hundreds of thousands of human beings, including German civilians, as well as civilians of other nations. The particulars concerning such murders are set forth in paragraph 9 of count two of this indictment and are incorporated herein by reference.[74]
Also in 1945, seven staff members of the Hadamar institute were tried for the killing of Soviet and Polish nationals, but not for the large-scale killing of German nationals at the institute. Alfons Klein, Karl Ruoff and Wilhelm Willig were sentenced to death and executed, the other four were given long prison sentences

History will repeat iself, those who signed this UK evil bullshit should face similar justice and retribution.
 

justinreilly

Senior Member
Messages
2,498
Location
NYC (& RI)
I guess the authors of a document like this would have a problem with high standards!

I always think this whenever I see poor CFS research that seems to over-emphasise some role for perfectionism.

It is insane the extremely low standards and tolerance for outright lies that exist for physician guidelines and peer-reviewed journal articles on ME! And the Lombardi study gets attacked for non-existant or minor problems. The bias is sickening.

This author Prof. Christopher Ward is a Wessely lover. He put an entire chapter, titled simply "Chronic Fatigue", on ME authored by Wessely and Chalder in his Handbook of Neurological Rehabilitation. There are many of the typical Wessely gems to be found here such as "In fact [ME] was neither new nor an encephalomyelitis...We now recognize that ME was an inappropriate label and it has been replaced by the term CFS, a label that is short and accurate."

http://books.google.com/books?id=wn...#v=onepage&q=Chronic Fatigue Syndrome&f=false
 

Enid

Senior Member
Messages
3,309
Location
UK
Reminds me of the ongoing Murdoch fiasco - going to fight his corner to the bitter end.
 

heapsreal

iherb 10% discount code OPA989,
Messages
10,099
Location
australia (brisbane)
In the 'they say its in the mind' section they say no its an altered brain state just like hypnotism is a brain state and then when u go to the treatment section they mention bloody exercise, what!! Having a stroke is an altered brain state, came on i know u cant feel anything down the left side of your body or talk to me but get up and exercise as it will fix everything up all better.
A kiss on the forehead from mum would work alot better.
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
In the 'they say its in the mind' section they say no its an altered brain state just like hypnotism is a brain state and then when u go to the treatment section they mention bloody exercise, what!! Having a stroke is an altered brain state, came on i know u cant feel anything down the left side of your body or talk to me but get up and exercise as it will fix everything up all better.
A kiss on the forehead from mum would work alot better.

Hmmm... couldn't every human experience can be described as an altered brain state. I googled 'altered brain state' to check what it meant, the first result: Hypnosis is not an altered brain state?

It seems like it's just another meaningless/misleading/comforting term.