Bad breath

[torp]

I have CFS since many years. At the same time as I got ill in CFS I began to experience a bad breath that I never had felt before. I still have bad breath with a distinct caracter every time I have increased symptoms of CFS. When I feel better it disappear. I think that this can be caused by an ongoing viral (XMRV?) infection in the lymphoid tissues in the throat. Anyone else having this symptom with recurring bad breath?

 

[Nielk]

Sometimes, it could be related to gut issues which many CFS patients suffer from.

 

[ukxmrv]

For me it's usually a sinus infection or blocked nose. Got one at the moment and it's horrible.

Any sign of an infection on your tongue or tonsils though? I get tonsil infections plus swollen glands a lot.

What about your sense of taste?

XMRV+

 

[Boule de feu]

I think Kenny deMeirleir was talking about H2S...
would you say it smells like rotten fish?

 

[torp]

Thanks for your answers.

ukxmrv: No sign of infection on the tounge or on the inside of the cheeks. No effect on taste. The infection/inflammation is limited to lymphoid tissue, that is the tonsils and the back of the throat. So the infection is in agreement with the tropism for XMRV to infect lymphoid tissues.

Boule de feu: The smell is not that of H2S. I am a chemist so I am familiar with that. The smell is a very characteristic amine-smell.

 

[Athene]

Hiya,
Apart from sinusitis and bad tonsils, two other things I know that can cause bad breath are
-unbalanced bacterial flora in the mouth (the mouth has its own floral balance like the intestine), caused by inadequate immune system or taking antibiotics. You can help this by putting probiotics in your mouth and leaving them there as you fall asleep, i.e. not swallowing them.
-high cortisol (I don't know if it's the cortisol itself, or if the high cortisol unbalances something else, but I can always smell this on people. The smell is unlike anything else and pretty extemely nasty). You can get strips that measure the level of cortisol in your mouth if you fancy checking this.

H2S doesn't give you an eggy H2S breath smell, but when I had it at very high levels I did also have a tendency to bad breath. I don't know if it was a concidence, but anyway, if it does cause halitosis, it is a normal type of bad breath smell.

 

[Boule de feu]

H2S doesn't give you an eggy H2S breath smell, but when I had it at very high levels I did also have a tendency to bad breath. I don't know if it was a concidence, but anyway, if it does cause halitosis, it is a normal type of bad breath smell.

I believe sulfur does smell like rotten eggs.

It is written in Wikipedia:
When left on the tongue, the anaerobic respiration of such bacteria can yield either the putrescent smell of indole, skatole, polyamines, or the "rotten egg" smell of volatile sulfur compounds (VSCs) such as hydrogen sulfide, methyl mercaptan, Allyl methyl sulfide, and dimethyl sulfide.

 

[Boule de feu]

Is it possible to evaluate our own breath?

 

[Boule de feu]

I know that at some point I had heavy post-nasal drip.
What about mucus?

 

[Boule de feu]

Hiya,
Apart from sinusitis and bad tonsils, two other things I know that can cause bad breath are
-unbalanced bacterial flora in the mouth (the mouth has its own floral balance like the intestine), caused by inadequate immune system or taking antibiotics. You can help this by putting probiotics in your mouth and leaving them there as you fall asleep, i.e. not swallowing them.
-high cortisol (I don't know if it's the cortisol itself, or if the high cortisol unbalances something else, but I can always smell this on people. The smell is unlike anything else and pretty extemely nasty). You can get strips that measure the level of cortisol in your mouth if you fancy checking this.

H2S doesn't give you an eggy H2S breath smell, but when I had it at very high levels I did also have a tendency to bad breath. I don't know if it was a concidence, but anyway, if it does cause halitosis, it is a normal type of bad breath smell.

Unless I am mistaking, CFS sufferers usually have low cortisol.

 

[Athene]

Hi Boule de feu,
There is a thread or two about cortisol. It seems most of us have high cortisol for the first few years, then low cortisol after that.
I think the theory is that the adrenal gland usually goes into overdrive when you get an infection, and after it has been going for several years it just gets worn out.

Re the H2S, that list from Wikipedia gives a whole variety of smells, doesn't it? So I reckon that looks like a strong candidate for being the explanation.

 

[Boule de feu]

Hi Boule de feu,
There is a thread or two about cortisol. It seems most of us have high cortisol for the first few years, then low cortisol after that.
I think the theory is that the adrenal gland usually goes into overdrive when you get an infection, and after it has been going for several years it just gets worn out.

Re the H2S, that list from Wikipedia gives a whole variety of smells, doesn't it? So I reckon that looks like a strong candidate for being the explanation.

Thank you for this info, Athene.
I will look into it. This is a new fact to me.
Could you provide a link where this is explained?

 

[ukxmrv]

Athene,

There's no evidence for that theory in ME and CFS though. My own cortisol readings have been low. Same with family members. Dr Cheney mentioned it to patients in the early days as a possible theory but there was never any data to back it up and there still isn't.

My symptoms that I associate with low cortisol in the mornings have been there since the acute viral onset virus struck me. In fact I think that my family has a tendancy to this. No sign of any high cortisol in us.

XMRV+

 

[Athene]

Hi,

The Wikipedia article on cortisol is a really good starting point because it is detailed and very well referenced
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

The best explanation I know of the cortisol "burnout" theory is James Wilson
http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/

UKXMRV, I have been told about this "high then eventually low cortisol" phenomenon by several pretty boring / conventional NHS doctors over the last few years. They didn't seem the sort of doctors who would go out on a limb, but then again they weren't specifically talking about CFS (probably knew nothing about it), but about chronic infections in general. I guess if some of us with CFS go straight to the low cortisol stage, that's yet another of those weird and as yet unexplained mysteries of this illness.

My son has high cortisol still (ill for 5 years) and I have extremely low cortisol (ill for 27 years).
My Lyme doctor reckons that when people get the "tired but wired" feeling, their adrenal glands are starting to work again sporadically and irregularly, and they get abnormal peaks of cortisol, which make them feel horrible because they are adapted to functioning with an abnormally low level.

 

[Boule de feu]

The links seem interesting but none of them mentions CFS/ME.
Maybe I did not see it.
I saw the word burnout but it is not the same.

 

[Athene]

Hi Boule de Feu,

The bit explaining the relationship between adrenal fatigue and CFS is here
http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/adren...adrenal-fatigue-chronic-fatigue-syndrome.html

Basically the info on the site is all about having low cortisol, the amazing variety of things that go wrong as a result, and some little things you can do to avoid making it worse. I've had my cortisol measured so I know this is very relevant to me.
The number of CFS symptoms that can be caused by low cortisol is amazing. Whether the low cortisol is the sole cause of them, or simply making them worse, I doubt if there is a way to tell. But I am trying to give my adrenals a helping hand in case it can help a bit.

BTW the book is drastically more helpful than this website, as it explains everything properly.

 

[ukxmrv]

Thanks Athene, for making it clear that there is no evidence that "most of us" have high cortisol for years and that this is your opinion only and some nameless doctors. I've also spoken to doctors who think the opposite so I guess we are even.

I think that it is dangerous to make these unproven generalisations about cortisol and ME that are not supported by the studies that show low cortisol, given that depression shows a cortisol effect and so many patients (as per Lenny Jason) can be diagnosed with CFS. We need proper studies. It may be the cortisol is different and could provide a way of separating patients (for example look at cortisol in Simon Wessely's psych hospital patients compared to USA CFS patients).

Very sorry to hear that both you and your son are ill and for so long. I don't claim to have the answers for cortisol and ME and would like to see further studies in this area.

 

[Boule de feu]

This is interesting:

http://www.badbreathexpert.com/

Bad breath and cortisol:


Bad Breath: Two Recent Studies
Posted by admin in Research on 04 26th, 2009 | 2 Comments
Do you feel like you have a lot of stress? If youre like most people these days, you claim to be over stressed due to work, kids, bills, and more. We all know that stress affects our overall well being, but did you know that being even more specific, stress affects our oral healthcare as it leads to tooth loss and gum disease. Great, just one other thing to stress about right!

An article published in the Journal of Periodontology last summer, states there is a direct link between stress and periodontal disease, issues like bleeding, sensitive gums, and receding gums. In addition, other psychological factors such as depression, anxiety, and loneliness also cause periodontal disease.

You may be asking, how does stress lead to bad oral health? Well, the stress hormones cortisol is the issue. It is released by the adrenal glands and is necessary for many functions such as glucose metabolism, insulin, blood pressure control, and for inflammatory response and proper immune function.

High levels of stress equate to increased levels of cortisol production. And increased levels of cortisol are linked to an increase deterioration of gum tissue and the bone that supports the teeth. This leads to a list of other oral health issue such as tooth decay, gum inflammation, and tooth loss.

Behavioral factors may also be a contributing factor. Its common for over stressed individuals or those suffering from depression to disregard normal day-to-day oral healthcare. They brush and floss their teeth infrequently. Additionally, high stress leads to increased alcohol and tobacco usage, both of which create an environment friendly for bad breath, germs and gum disease.

Its very important to find healthy activities the relieve stress. Regular exercise does wonders in lowering ones stress levels. Also, a well balanced diet adds even more balance.

Another study recently released in the journal of Microbiology shows that over 900 different types of odor producing oral bacteria were found in the throat and tonsil areas. This is a startling find, as most people think that by simply brushing your teeth, including your tongue, you get rid of bad breath.

Most traditional oral care products only cover the smell of bad breath. They dont actually get rid of it. There are very few products on the market that actually destroy the bad breath producing bacteria. These products, such as Therabreath, use a rich oxygen based formula for destroying the bacteria, as these bacteria dont survive in an oxygen rich environment. So next time, when looking for a mouth wash, read the label and sees if it contains and oxygen based formula.

 

[Athene]

Thanks Athene, for making it clear that there is no evidence that "most of us" have high cortisol for years and that this is your opinion only and some nameless doctors. .

Don't forget your manners, UKXMRV. If you're just interested in scoring points rather than genuine intellectual enquiry, I won't talk to you again.