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WPI Finds High Levels of Retrovirus in ME/CFS Patients

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
I would be very surprised if healthy controls had not already been tested for antibodies. This would be a blunder of epic proportions. It also would have been caught by others before publication if, as Hilary Johnson writes in her blog, the paper was held since May for verification.

Re: the possibility of sexual transmission. I have long suspected this could have been the case for me as a partner, who had neurological issues at the time I was with him, died of cancer (I believe prostate) at 58. And yet, none with whom I have had relationships since becoming ill have a chronic illness. However, this is not dissimilar to HIV transmission. Women are much more vulnerable to infection with HIV due to the mechanics, so to speak.

I don't know how relevant this is but my father had prostate cancer.

As to any links to stress. Life is stressful. All illnesses and all immune function is affected by stress. And, stress is a normal part of life. I'm quite confident that very convincing connections between stressful life events and anything at all could be made by someone studying statistics 101.

We don't know exactly how XMRV fits into the picture right now. We do know, unless the scientists involved and those publishing the findings had a collective brain fart, that we are infected at rates that are startling and cannot but be significant.

I'm so blown away by all of this.

Koan

ETA The fact that XMRV is thought to be transmissible in saliva could account for the orchestra and the basket ball team. HIV is not transmissible through saliva.

Very interesting points Koan, as always.

I need to sign off however because each new post just leads me to ask more questions...which I know we don't have the answers for, which leads to more stress, which isn't good, etc.. :)

But...I'll ask this, and then come back in a couple of days: If it's transmissable in saliva, then wouldn't it be a lot more contagious?

so many questions...
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
saliva and "abnormal red blood cells"

"ETA The fact that XMRV is thought to be transmissible in saliva could account for the orchestra and the basket ball team. HIV is not transmissible through saliva."

I am searching my tired debilitated brain for memories of "saliva encounters" in the year, months, days before my initial collapse. I was a college student back then, so I'm sure I shared A LOT of food utensils, drinks, even toothbrushes without even thinking twice about it.

My sudden onset happened with a "MONO-LIKE" illness, though I tested repeatedly negative (3 times in a row) for mono. When my father (a pathologist) finally drew and scanned my blood himself under the microscope, he said 75% of my red blood cells were "abnormal." He (like all the other doctors) had no idea what was causing this. In time the red blood cells went back to "normal," but my illness never went away. My father's dead now, so unfortunately I can't ask him any questions about his initial observations. But that's the main thing I remember.
 

hvs

Senior Member
Messages
292
I think we need to know a lot more about the patient population that was tested. It doesn't seem to fit a lot of different 'types', and now if it's found that these other cohorts don't have XMRV, then will they be told they don't really have CFS/ME or don't have "real" CFS/ME per this definition or that?

I think it's more likely that the folks without XMRV will still have CFS and the folks with XMRV will have XAND.

This is not a bad thing. NO ONE gets better if we insist that all sufferers have the same thing. If we do that, there can be no effective markers, studies, or cures.
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
NO ONE gets better if we insist that all sufferers have the same thing. If we do that, there can be no effective markers, studies, or cures.

Good point.

I have to keep reminding myself that this is just the TIP of the ICEBERG we've come up against. There's a whole lot more beneath the surface, that we don't know yet.

Still it's quite overwhelming.
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
Cheney

Just FYI, Cheney has already posted on his blog about this. You need to pay to view it, a fact which is stirring up a controvery in its own right, but I paid and so far Cheney has posted 3 blogs about XMRV since yesterday. I can't copy and paste it here obviously, but I'll just say that he agrees that it's causal. In fact, he harks back on his days with Peterson and says they always thought it is a retrovirus. RE: Rnase-L he actually think this virus is the cause of Rnase-L upregulation and not the result.

If interested, the website is cheneyresearch.com
 

Cort

Phoenix Rising Founder
Game Changer

A Blog I just put up on the website: http://aboutmecfs.org/blog/?p=920

I just love that comment by LeGrice “NCI is responding like it did in the early days of HIV,” - that really gets me!

Game Changer

“Hopefully this will finally make people change their attitudes to this disease.” Dr. Judy Mikovits

The news had been in the air for the last week; the Whittemore Peterson Institute is going to publish something big - really big - on Friday. Then early Thursday the news was out - a retrovirus had been found in many if not almost all ME/CFS patients. The media had prepared themselves well - feature stories shot up on the Wall Street Journal, LA Times, NPR, Scientific American, etc.

It was big news indeed - after two decades chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) was back in the news in a big way. Ironically the last big splash like this in the 1990’s featured a retrovirus in ME/CFS that didn’t pan out and left a young researchers career in tatters. One has the feeling that that is not going to happen this time.

A Deep Bench - One reason is the extraordinary depth of the research team involved in these findings. It’s not often that the head of the NCI’s AIDS and Viral Cancer Center of Excellence has any reason to utter the words “chronic fatigue syndrome” to the national media. But here was Dr. Stuart Le Grice not only uttering the words but likening this stage of the fight to the early HIV epidemic and its partners pledging the National Cancer Institutes best at unraveling just what is going on.

“NCI is responding like it did in the early days of HIV,” says Stuart Le Grice, head of the Center of Excellence in HIV/AIDS and cancer virology at NCI and one of the organizers of the July workshop.


Besides Dr. Grice (not an author of the study) we had Dr. Ruscetti from the National Cancer Institute and the discoverer of XMRV, Dr. Silverman from the Cleveland Clinic chiming in. Clinic. To top it off the study was published in Science, the most prestigious and oft cited scientific journal in the world - an extraordinary event for the ME/CFS research community.

“These compelling data allow the development of a hypothesis concerning a cause of this complex and misunderstood disease, since retroviruses are a known cause of neurodegenerative diseases and cancer in man,” Francis Ruscetti, Ph.D., Laboratory of Experimental Immunology, NCI.

The Big Picture - ME/CFS patients have never seen anything like this. And in fact it isn’t all about them. Among the stranger findings emanating out of the Whittemore Peterson Institute is the fact that this retrovirus, which had heretofore been associated only with prostate cancer in some neurological diseases was founded on most 4% of the healthy controls blood. This suggests that about 10 million Americans could be carrying a ticking bomb. It also suggests that anyone who’s having a blood transfusion could be at risk. Those two things got enough of the National Cancer Institute’s attention that it quickly convened a workshop in August on how to deal with this problem.

The study released by the Whittemore Peterson Institute found that two thirds of chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) patients were carrying a recently discovered retrovirus called XMRV that is associated with severe cases of prostate cancer. They were lead to this discovery by the fact that both ME/CFS and prostrate cancer patients often have a dysfunction in an important immune enzyme called RNase L. When they looked at the ME/CFS patients they were astonished to find that most of them carried the virus as well.

In fact the prevalence of this virus in ME/CFS may have been understated. In telephone calls Dr. Mikovits reported that the WPI was finding antibodies to the retrovirus in fully 95% of their ME/CFS samples. The fact that the few fibromyalgia patients tested also tested positive for the virus suggests that it may be found in other neuro- immune diseases and the WPI will be testing that possibility.

“I can’t wait to be able to tell my patients. It’s going to knock their socks off” Dr. Judy Mikovits

The New (Old) AIDS - AID’s and chronic fatigue syndrome were often mentioned together earlier in our diseases history. The infectious onset , the chronic course, the devastating nature of the illness, the inability to identify a pathogen and the fact that HIV had just arrived on the scene as well - all made both lay and professional people think ‘retrovirus’. Twenty five years later the WPI is asserting that, yes, ME/CFS patients are infected with a retrovirus - in fact, one of only four retroviruses in existence. In some ways it fits very well; all retroviruses disrupt the immune system in such a way as to allow other viruses to flourish. Several studies have, of course, found highly increased rates of opportunistic viral infections in ME/CFS - a common, though more devastating finding in AIDS.

The Long Road - But after the ill-fated Wistar retroviral finding (see Osler’s Web) the scientific community mostly begged off the viral hunt in ME/CFS. Part of the reason was just our bad luck. HIV was killing people by attacking the masterminds of the late immune response - the T- helper cells. T cells were and are a hot item in the medical research community. It’s the late immune response, after all, that is primarily responsible for finally knocking down a pathogen.

The early or innate immune response, on the other hand, is ‘merely’ responsible for identifying the pathogens and engaging in a holding action until the big guns (T-cells) come to the rescue. Its the natural killer cells in the early immune response that are primarily affected in chronic fatigue syndrome and they weren’t getting much respect. While they certainly kill invaders natural killer cells are also responsible for putting out the alert that a pathogen is present. AIDS wipes out T-helper cells, it may be that XMRV in ME/CFS patients knocks out natural killer cells; either way the immune fails to spot pathogen’s. AIDS and ME/CFS patients may suffer from a similar problem but in different parts of the immune system.

Once the innate immune response research got cranking it took some remarkable findings in the late 1990’s and the early 2000’s regarding the RNase L enzyme and ME/CFS to eventually to turn Dr. Mikovits head toward Dr. Silvermans work on XMRV. Science did work - just in a greatly delayed fashion.

Transmission - If the XMRV virus is the key to the viral cascade that the Whittemore Peterson Institute has identified in so many of its patients a central question involves how did that did that key get in the door? Viruses don’t just jump up and attack people they need to be transmitted. It’s clear that this virus is not spread through the air which means that in order to get infected with it the virus needs to be transmitted from human to human via the saliva, blood, semen or mother’s milk . Just how the virus gets transmitted and how easily it gets transmitted will surely be the one of the major questions the National Cancer Institute and the WPI will be working on.

Treatment - the list of possible treatments consists of anti-retroviral drugs that can have severe side effects. The WPI will apparently be testing these drugs out in some of their patients.

The Cause? - Nor do they know if it’s the cause of ME/CFS. Dr. Mikovits is clearly leaning towards that idea but the WPI is careful to state that that has not been proven. Until we know better the XMRV is simply another virus - albeit with intriguing possibilities - that has been found in ME/CFS patients. It will take much more study as well as independent verification of the WPI’s results before we can say how significant this virus is.

Game Changer - Only time will tell how significant this finding will end up being but it’s clearly already realigning the ME/CFS research playing field. Dr. Reeves stated that the CDC is already attempting to replicate the study findings. The National Cancer Institutes quickly convened workshop, the presence of this study in such a prominent medical journal, and the incredible news coverage that have accompanied these findings hopefully suggest that something fundamental has changed. Yes, there are questions about the results and they will be covered in a later blog, but the widespread interest in this study will surely translate into greatly increased funding for research into XMRV and hopefully into more immune research in chronic fatigue syndrome as well.

“This is going to create an avalanche of subsequent studies.” Dr. Schnaffer (Vanderbilt)

Regarding federal funding this study couldn’t have come at a better time. Neither the CDC nor the NIH (with the exception of NK cells) have show any interest in pathogens or the immune system in over 10 years. Research into ME/CFS has declined precipitously in both institutions over the past five years. Hopefully this study will shine a light on how poorly our federal government has funded ME/CFS research and open up much needed possibilities for research and treatment.

“The scientific evidence that a retrovirus is implicated in CFS opens a new world of possibilities for so many people,” said Annette Whittemore, founder and president of WPI and mother of a CFS patient. “Scientists can now begin the important work of translating this discovery into medical care for individuals with XMRV related diseases.”
 

cfs since 1998

Senior Member
Messages
616
Of course they checked the controls for antibodies too, they would not be throwing around a 95% figure without doing that.

The following was quoted in post #3 of the thread: "Mikovits believes the association may be even stronger than the present work indicates. DNA sequencing only picks up active infections, she says, so she wants to study CFS exposure to the virus more broadly. In an unpublished investigation, she and her colleagues analyzed blood cells in about 330 CFS patients and found that more than 95% expressed antibodies to XMRV, whereas about 4% of healthy controls did."
 

mojoey

Senior Member
Messages
1,213
Thanks cfs since 1998

Those are the exact numbers, when coupled with the 67% for antigen positivity (PCR testing) that Cheney deems to imply causation.
 

cfs since 1998

Senior Member
Messages
616
This was just published 30 minutes ago:

"Anyone surprised that Carter did not mention Thursday's news about the discovery of a virus that might be the cause of chronic fatigue syndrome?

I thought for sure he'd discuss it. Although the new discovery doesn't necessarily bode well for Ampligen. If you read the reports on the new virus, researchers are excited to try existing antiviral drugs, like those currently approved for HIV, to see if they can help patients with chronic fatigue syndrome.

Recall that Ampligen's antiviral track record isn't very good. The drug failed studies in HIV patients, for instance."

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10609585/1/hemispherx-ceo-carter-speaks-biobuzz.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN

Ampligen IS an antiviral. The failed HIV studies almost 20 years ago were due to Dupont's improperly packaging of the drug.

I do not see this negatively affecting FDA approval. The FDA is going to look at the safety and efficacy data in the NDA. Whether a link exists between CFS and XMRV or not is not really relevant to that data.
 

Kati

Patient in training
Messages
5,497
Koan, I swear to god I got EBV trough saliva transmission from a cancer patient. And lots of cancer are triggered by viruses. I make the connection. I only wish I could find a virologist willing to do all the testing.



 

cfs since 1998

Senior Member
Messages
616
"ETA The fact that XMRV is thought to be transmissible in saliva could account for the orchestra and the basket ball team. HIV is not transmissible through saliva."

I have not heard that it is thought to be transmitted in saliva. What are you quoting? WPI's website FAQ says, "XMRV is thought to be transmitted through body fluids such as blood, semen, and mother’s breast milk but is not transmitted through the air. It is not known whether XMRV is more easily transmitted than other human retroviruses."

My sudden onset happened with a "MONO-LIKE" illness, though I tested repeatedly negative (3 times in a row) for mono. When my father (a pathologist) finally drew and scanned my blood himself under the microscope, he said 75% of my red blood cells were "abnormal."
Tested negatively by what test? The mono spot test isn't very accurate. Antibody testing to EBV is mroe accurate, although cytomegalovirus can also cause a mono-like illness, so you should have been tested for that too. Your red blood cell abnormality is interesting; thanks for sharing.

---

Like others I am also trying to figure out why a virus that is not easily transmitted can cause my condition (which I got when I was 16), and how it can be responsible for outbreaks, etc. The only thing I can come up with, and this is conjecture at this point, is that I could have had the XMRV virus at birth, or at another point, and then coming down with mono (EBV/CMV/HHV6) causes the two viruses to interact synergistically some how.

Another reason I suspect that two viruses are required is because the 4% figure has shown up somewhere before. It is the proportion of patients who have CFS symptoms after 24 months after mononucleosis (Pediatrics 2008). The Dubbo study found it was 3% who had CFS at 24 months after being infected with EBV, Ross River Virus, or Q-Fever. Of course the similarity of the 3-4% having CFS 24 months post infection and the 4% health population XMRV could be merely a coincidence.
 

MEKoan

Senior Member
Messages
2,630
Hey All,

We are, understandably, spinning our wheels. It makes complete sense that we would want to chew over this information and compare it to our personal experiences but it is all only conjecture.

I began the perhaps erronious statement that XMRV was transmissible in saliva. In fact, what WPI may have said was that it was found in saliva which is not the same as being transmissible through saliva. I don't think we know if it is or it isn't.

I remember the early days of AIDS very clearly. The same kind of confusion regarding how easily transmissible it was existed. It took a long time to sort through the evidence as, I'm sure, it will for us, too.

On another point: I also tested negative for mono initially, but when I did not recover over the next couple of months, I was tested again and found to have soaring titres for EBV. I remember my doctor commenting that the numbers made no sense because they would be considered unusually high even had the test been done nearer the beginning of my illness and just made no sense at all long after I should have, but did not, recover. It seems clear to me now that it was a reactivation.

I find all of this speculation really fascinating but that's all it is just now. We can't know and I, for one, am not going to get too attached to any of my own theories. I'm waiting for more news from the guys at the "deep bench".

Peace out,
Koan
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
okay...

Just FYI, Cheney has already posted on his blog about this. You need to pay to view it, a fact which is stirring up a controvery in its own right, but I paid and so far Cheney has posted 3 blogs about XMRV since yesterday. I can't copy and paste it here obviously, but I'll just say that he agrees that it's causal. In fact, he harks back on his days with Peterson and says they always thought it is a retrovirus. RE: Rnase-L he actually think this virus is the cause of Rnase-L upregulation and not the result.

If interested, the website is cheneyresearch.com

...but if it is indeed 'the cause', then how does he explain the estimate 11.4 million people who have XMRV, yet are 'healthy' and not disabled with CFS/ME?

???
 

MEKoan

Senior Member
Messages
2,630
In the interests of accuracy, I quoted Hilary J's assertion that the paper was submitted in May which may well be true. However, the "official" date of submission, as seen on the Science site is:

Published Online October 8, 2009
Science DOI: 10.1126/science.1179052

Science Express Index
Reports

Submitted on July 14, 2009
Accepted on August 31, 2009
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
Like others I am also trying to figure out why a virus that is not easily transmitted can cause my condition (which I got when I was 16), and how it can be responsible for outbreaks, etc. The only thing I can come up with, and this is conjecture at this point, is that I could have had the XMRV virus at birth, or at another point, and then coming down with mono (EBV/CMV/HHV6) causes the two viruses to interact synergistically some how.

Another reason I suspect that two viruses are required is because the 4% figure has shown up somewhere before. It is the proportion of patients who have CFS symptoms after 24 months after mononucleosis (Pediatrics 2008). The Dubbo study found it was 3% who had CFS at 24 months after being infected with EBV, Ross River Virus, or Q-Fever. Of course the similarity of the 3-4% having CFS 24 months post infection and the 4% health population XMRV could be merely a coincidence.


Here's a quote from Dedra Buchwald, of the U of Wash:

"This may end the controversy as to whether there is an underlying infection in some cases of chronic fatigue syndrome, but is unlikely to explain all cases, says internist Dedra Buchwald of the University of Washington in Seattle. Retroviruses can awaken latent viruses already in cells. It is possible that chronic fatigue symptoms are caused not by XMRV but by other viruses that it activates, she says."
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
Tested negatively by what test? The mono spot test isn't very accurate. Antibody testing to EBV is mroe accurate, although cytomegalovirus can also cause a mono-like illness, so you should have been tested for that too. Your red blood cell abnormality is interesting; thanks for sharing.

I think it was the mono spot test. That's the ONLY test that the idiot doctors I saw back then (in 1977) would do. They didn't even know what an immune system was back then. :rolleyes:
 

MEKoan

Senior Member
Messages
2,630
Hey Dan,

Can't stay away, can ya ;)

I think others have mentioned that it could well be comparable to people who are HIV positive yet do not go on to develop AIDS even without treatment.

This is both exciting and exhausting!

Those of you who cannot lie down with their laptops must really be suffering now. I feel as though I am typing on a small boat in a stormy sea and I am lying down!

I can hear the crashing!

Take care all,
Koan
 

dannybex

Senior Member
Messages
3,564
Location
Seattle
Lol!

Hey Dan,

Can't stay away, can ya ;)

I think others have mentioned that it could well be comparable to people who are HIV positive yet do not go on to develop AIDS even without treatment.

This is both exciting and exhausting!

Those of you who cannot lie down with their laptops must really be suffering now. I feel as though I am typing on a small boat in a stormy sea and I am lying down!

I can hear the crashing!

Take care all,
Koan

LOL.

You caught me, which is a good thing, as this is stressing me out...and thus crashing me out too much. I know it will take time to figure it out, but I guess there's something in all of us that wants answers NOW, I suppose because we've been sick for so long...but that's not only not rational, it's not fair to those who have produced these studies.

Even though I'm curious to hear more on Cheney's take...I PROMISE here and now to log off until at least tomorrow. :)

d.

p.s. I did some Gupta meditation, and it really helped my sore, tensed up back...then came back here and it's tightening up again!
 

Dreambirdie

work in progress
Messages
5,569
Location
N. California
SF tv report

I just called the San Francisco TV station (channel 7), to ask if they would do a story about these findings. They said they actually DID do a short segment yesterday evening, which I missed. Darn. I asked if they would do a longer follow story as a medical segment, and the woman I talked to said she'd pass
that along and consider it.