FDA and NIH confirm WPI XMRV findings (report of leaked presentation)

[MaryAnn]

Thank you for this interesting thread.

Judderwocky - since you know physics, didn' quantum physics even change some of the "laws" of physics? I think XMRV will prove the same way...the virus does not act like other retroviruses and may change the way scientists will research.

Also, I may be wrong, but I thought that development of a vaccine was for treatment (perhaps both will be worked on, I know they have been working on one for HIV/AIDS for years without success but hey are still trying).

 

[judderwocky]

oh yeah...definitely... and there are even newer theories that will replace quantum....its just never absolute in science... saying "very likely" is a very good sign and people shouldn't be discouraged that it was stated with absolute certainty

i believe research into XMRV will shed some light on a number of different evolutionary mechanisms.... the differences and similarities to other retroviruses will give them insight into how we evolved different mechanisms and what trends have shaped our immune system for generations

 

[bullybeef]

maybe not OTT but definitely ODD...they never quarantined HIV patients why would u think they would quarantine xmrv pt?:innocent1:::Retro smile:

It's a slow day, and pretty warm here for the UK!!!

 

[SeaShel]

It is far more likely they will rush a vaccine, then mass vaccinate most of the world. This will stimulate the economy rather than crash it, but push government debts even higher.

Bye
Alex

Alex, the rushing a vaccine thing is one of my bigger fears. I feel that an unnecessary measles vaccine triggered me from something resembling remission to full blown never-return-to-work-or-semblance-of-former-life state of being.

If it bears out that some (im)perfect storm of genetics-xmrv-triggering event is the cause of me/cfs (and fibro, autism, prostate cancer, etc etc), another vaccine could create a whole 'nother problem.

I just hate the 'a vaccine is the cure to everything' approach. Every time I see a Guardasil commercial, I yell at the TV.

Shelley

 

[Daffodil]

for a vaccine to tirgger disease, usually you have to have the pathogen first...or the vaccine has to be contaminated....right?

 

[MaryAnn]

I agree with you Shelley. My daughter received several required vaccines to enter college in the medical field and late that year received the Gardasil vaccine which we know caused her CFS symptoms. There are hundreds of "Guardasil Girls" with CFS-type symptoms, and many wih seizures. They received the vaccines (there are 3 of them) at young age. I think they maybe the link in between autistic children and some adults with CFS/GWS. If you want to see worldwide the issue with Guardasil, just search it out or check VAERS (the vaccine side-effects report). Of course not eveyone has problems, so there is something that is specific to these girls that causes them to react. There also have been over 60 deaths reported although only a couple have actually listed COD as complications from Guardasil (most are from heart failure, and this is at average age of 16!!!).

 

[alex3619]

Hi Seashel and Daffodil

My post was in reply to a "what if" scenario - what if XMRV were more transmissable than we thought, maybe highly transmissable, or at least that was how I interpreted it. The vaccine rush approach was an alternative to global quaratine of all the infected.

My suspicion is that vaccines trigger viruses like XMRV. I very much doubt that XMRV is the only one. If the vaccine is targeting XMRV, then it will allow the immune system to attacki it better, but the patient might have to be hospitalized if they already have XMRV, at least initially. If the virus the person has is something else, then it may become worse after the vaccine. There have been several other threads that talk about vaccines and XMRV.

If you don't have XMRV or another similar infection, then it is very unlikely you will have a negative response to a vaccine unless they make poor choices for ingredients (including adjuvants).

I really doubt that an XMRV vaccine would be contaminated with live XMRV, but I could never be entirely sure - it depends on the manufacturing process and quality control.

Personally I suspect vaccines can induce both CFS and autism, but only in one condition: the patient has XMRV (although there might be similar viruses out there). Teratogenic compounds in some versions of the vaccine may also induce autism, but nobody has ever been able to prove it.

A vaccine can be rushed in three months. A proper study will take at least a year, probably several years. How important it is to rush the vaccine depends on how transmissable XMRV really is, and at the moment it appears that it is not very transmissable except through blood products.

Bye
Alex

for a vaccine to tirgger disease, usually you have to have the pathogen first...or the vaccine has to be contaminated....right?

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

Everyone should bear in mind that it is quite possible, a priori, that a vaccine could precipitate autism in a child who would have gotten it anyway a few months later. So even if someone really did get autism symptoms right after a vaccine, and this was in fact not a coincidence - that doesn't prove that they weren't going to get autism soon anyway, or have a 90% chance of getting it soon anyway.

Anyway, few vaccines, or none, are perfect. It's possible Guardasil might have certain uncommon side effects, but its impact on cervical cancer is clear, and outweighs the side effects. Since a given randomly selected person has some lifetime risk of getting CFS - maybe about 2% - it would be irrational to refuse a fully effective XMRV vaccine, even if there is a 0.01% chance of some untoward effect.

 

[jessjb79]

Didn't Dr. Mikovits once publicly speculate that if xmrv is a cause for some autism and a child has xmrv and receives vaccines that activate the immune system - you are essentially quickly replicating immune cells and so therefore replicating xmrv and fast (since xmrv is in the cells replicating)? Maybe this could bring on some of the autism symptoms and onset.... It made sense when I heard it but I don't remember what else she said...

 

[judderwocky]

what if.... and this is completely speculation... XMRV was actually an ERV... and the missing pieces were filled in by the MLV contaminations in vaccines... for instance... you have a chunk of the ERV thats been activated, and then getting the vaccine introduces enough MLV contaminants that the XMRV is able to wake up.... to complete itself... liek say the integrase protein is what is missing now, maybe thats the chunk you get from the vaccine contamination

a lot of the ERVs we carry are supposedly inactivated.... but what if they are only partially activated, and suddenly you get a ton of the missing pieces flushed in with some adjuvant .... i know this is wild speculation... anybody care to show me the break in logic that my brain fog is hiding?

like for instance XMRV was atually always in a bunch of the population from birth... just inherited.. and maybe its only partially deactivated... but then you get some pieces of an MLV virus... like just enough of the proteins and missing pieces to put together a new copy of the virus thats able to restart the infection...

to what degree are ERV's silenced? can pieces be rexpressed piece meal>?

do we know absolutely its not an erv at this point?

 

[George]

It is absolutly not an ERV.

 

[judderwocky]

http://www.ecs.umass.edu/~mettu/ece597m/papers/Leung/sdarticle-1.pdf

seems to be relevant


basically they showed that ERV contaminants can actually reinfect new animals... the line is blurry between exogenous and endogenous

im just curious about whether or not additional conaminants could further blur this line...

 

[judderwocky]

but see.. .thats the thing ERv's are close enough to exogenous retroviruses, that they still have most of the machinery ... read the pdf... i get the impression these are more flexible... and im wondering if you had an ERV, and you got pieces of a similar exogenous retrovirus... say pieces of a closely related gamma retrovirus... then what happens when all the pieces mix together....

a lot of virus subtypes can swap pieces if they infect the same cells... this virus is so close to MLV's and i could swear i found an italian report somewher mentioning MLV contaminants in common human vaccines but im blanking on the location

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

I don't know much about our ERVs. Are they all inactivated? Any one of them that's not doing anything should accumulate more and more nonsense mutations over the millennia and eons. Since the entire thing would be evenly riddled with nonsense code, there'd really be no way to revive it without just replacing the entire thing.

All parts of our genome are subject to mutation. It's just that functioning parts almost always have their function worsened by mutation, so the mutant alleles are constantly filtered out of the gene-pool. (Mildly deleterious mutations may be a major cause - may be the major cause - of sub-optimal appearance, intelligence, health, and energy efficiency in individuals, and the average human individual may have about 300 of them.) You can see, then, why a sequence with no function will get mutated into garbage. The "mutation pressure" always exists, and every sequence that isn't fitness-enhancing - sufficiently fitness-enhancing to overbalance the mutation pressure - must rot away through mutation. If it is sufficiently fitness-enhancing, than those who have the right sequence will out-breed those who have a mutated sequence, and so the sequence is continually preserved.

 

[julius]

http://www.ecs.umass.edu/~mettu/ece597m/papers/Leung/sdarticle-1.pdf

I think this is referring more to mouse ERV's rather than human ERV's;

"however, XMRV may be derived from ERVs of rodents because X-MLVs are ERVs of inbred and wild mice." "...the risks of infection by ERVs from xenospecies through vaccination have been ignored."

George, Why do you say it's absolutely not and ERV?
Also....did all that talk about Ru-'scetties yesterday make you hungry??

 

[judderwocky]

I don't know much about our ERVs. Are they all inactivated? Any one of them that's not doing anything should accumulate more and more nonsense mutations over the millennia and eons. Since the entire thing would be evenly riddled with nonsense code, there'd really be no way to revive it without just replacing the entire thing.

All parts of our genome are subject to mutation. It's just that functioning parts almost always have their function worsened by mutation, so the mutant alleles are constantly filtered out of the gene-pool. (Mildly deleterious mutations may be a major cause - may be the major cause - of sub-optimal appearance, intelligence, health, and energy efficiency in individuals, and the average human individual may have about 300 of them.) You can see, then, why a sequence with no function will get mutated into garbage. The "mutation pressure" always exists, and every sequence that isn't fitness-enhancing - sufficiently fitness-enhancing to overbalance the mutation pressure - must rot away through mutation. If it is sufficiently fitness-enhancing, than those who have the right sequence will out-breed those who have a mutated sequence, and so the sequence is continually preserved.

thats the weird thing about this article... it talks about how even though some animals aren't susceptible to a virus, they still have some cell lines that are... so a vaccine can basically give it to them anyway... aditionally the pieces of all these viruses ... many of them are the same... it also sounds like the cell lines that are infected with ERV's can spontaneously retrigger... he talks about how one virus in koalas went from exogenous to endogenous, and apparently comes back the other way sometimes and can infect apes... apparently it was responsible for an outbreak in apes at a zoo that got lymphoma... even though it was "endogenous" for the koalas... but maybe i misunderstand...

so my curiosity is... first how much mlv are contaminated in human vacciness...some apparently... and how similar is it to known human retroviruses and endogenous retroviruses... maybe we picked up the pieces we needed to make a complete retrovirus with pieces we already had stored in our DNA

they document some weird cases of lymphomas in animals and weird cross contamination between dog and cat vaccinnes,,,,

im more and more curious about the vaccines ive had!

 

[Eric Johnson from I&I]

Anyway now that I think of it, a sequence -- even a functional sequence -- present in humans for many millennia would be constantly accumulating, at the very least, synonymous mutations that don't affect the amino acid sequence of the protein. There are ways for two synonymous variants to have unequal effects on fitness. But this phenomenon does not prevail sufficiently to prevent synonymous changes from happening. Over millennia, synonymous changes accumulate steadily in all proteins of all organisms.

And this signature of synonymous changes, in XMRV, must also be present in the sequence that XMRV derived from. This is why we can say for certain that all of the XMRV genome came from MuLV and/or from mice. If any piece of it were from the human genome, that piece would bear a signature of synonymous mutations that would make it easy to identify as a sequence of human-ERV origin as opposed to MuLV origin or mouse-ERV origin.

 

[judderwocky]

i know they're saying its been in humans for a while now... Ruscetti or whoever was saying that he wanted it changed to HXRMV or something new... he said there is actually no evidence that ANY mice seem to have this strain, meaning that it would be a human strain (he said they've tested something like 150 strains of mice and still haven't found any positive for this sequence or something).... but it wouldn't neccessariliy have been in our genome for millenia... say it was only here for a couple hundred. .... maybe a couple thousand... i did think it had picked up some human stuff... but i dont know the degree and im not certain...
my understanding was that it was murine in origin but had entered the human chemistry for a bit..


the koala erv went exogenous, to endogenous, and can be used to still infect other animals when it comes active... i think... it just usually doesn't unless they tease it out of the cell.... but if there were something similar in humans,.... and it was missing some pieces... and then you gave someone a vaccine with a chunk of those missing pieces... maybe you could reactivate it....
iknow its crazy ... just slap me

... i guess this is the jurassic park theory im thinking of LOL

 

[ixchelkali]

Also, since testing is usually not done until after the person is ill, and by the way, the fatigue must be over six months to get a diagnosis, then of course there is not way of knowing whether the people had insreased cortisol. I am afraid all we have is anecdotal evidence.

We did have one prospective study of viral onset CFS, the Dubbo study. They did blood tests at the time of the original illness, but I don't know if cortisol was one of the things they tested for. All I remember their testing for was immune function and viral load. Maybe someone else knows?

 

[Rivotril]

The doctor also said Culture causes contamination

who was the Doctor, Van der Meer?